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Topic: Pokemon Sun/Moon  (Read 3119 times)

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Pokemon Sun/Moon
« on: May 11, 2016, 02:49:49 AM »

    Offline Shyruni

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Okay, so seeing as I'm the Pokemon fanboy, figure I should be the one to start this.



The starter Pokemon for Sun/Moon have been announced, along with some gameplay in the trailer.  Looks like the main island is based off of Hawaii this time, and the characters are noticeably taller.  I like the new starter designs beyond the Water one, he feels like a generic water type.  Probably gonna go with Litten, though I'm a bit hesitant because I have a feeling he's gonna be the next Froakie (aka, the starter everyone picks).
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Pokemon Sun/Moon
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2016, 02:58:14 AM »

    Offline Tomlanji

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JESUS CHRIST, NO MORE CHIBIS? CHAR CUSTOMIZATION RETURNS? YOU CAN SEE YOURSELF WITHIN THE POKEMON BATTLE (NOT JUST THE POKEMON)?



Pokemon Sun/Moon
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 04:20:32 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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Okay, so seeing as I'm the Pokemon fanboy, figure I should be the one to start this.



The starter Pokemon for Sun/Moon have been announced, along with some gameplay in the trailer.  Looks like the main island is based off of Hawaii this time, and the characters are noticeably taller.  I like the new starter designs beyond the Water one, he feels like a generic water type.  Probably gonna go with Litten, though I'm a bit hesitant because I have a feeling he's gonna be the next Froakie (aka, the starter everyone picks).

Game's looking good so far. I'll definitively go for Rowlet, since I always go for grass-type and that grass/flying looks awesome.

About Litten being the favorite... Well that's no surprise. Charmander, Quilava, Torchic, Chimchar, and I think Tepig (but I skipped that gen so I wouldn't know) were all the mostly-picked starters in their generations. Fire is always the favorite and in gen 6, Frokie made a difference. Although I hated playing the game with him. Although Greninja is a great pokemon, the moves he learns by leveling up are crap, making him almost useless on my Pokemon X playthrough. Tell me about Water Shuriken... And he learns it twice! Just in case you noticed it's a shitty move. Chance it'll hit 5 times my ass. It only hit 2 every time for a total of some awesome 30 damage. Then he finally learns Hydro Pump, an actually good water-type move... with 5 PP. How am I supposed to beat the Elite Four with 5 Hydro Pumps? I don't wanna use my PP Ups on that. Sucks to rely on Ethers or Elixirs when your pokemon are like 20 levels above the Elite Four.

OK, done ranting. Rowlet seems to have an amazing concept (you can read his description here) and he starts off with a signature move, Leafage, right off the bat. Looking forward to playing Pokemon with non-chibi characters and having character customization back. Which, for somewhat logical reasons, was removed in ORAS. I wonder if secret bases will still be a thing in the game though. They were kind of silly, but I enjoyed them anyways.

P.S: Alola as the name of the region is totally not a reference to "Aloha."
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 05:13:11 AM by Tofu »
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Pokemon Sun/Moon
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 04:57:18 AM »

    Offline Tomlanji

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Pokemon Sun/Moon
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 08:54:06 AM »

    Offline vating

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Game's looking good so far. I'll definitively go for Rowlet, since I always go for grass-type and that grass/flying looks awesome.

About Litten being the favorite... Well that's no surprise. Charmander, Quilava, Torchic, Chimchar, and I think Tepig (but I skipped that gen so I wouldn't know) were all the mostly-picked starters in their generations. Fire is always the favorite and in gen 6, Frokie made a difference. Although I hated playing the game with him. Although Greninja is a great pokemon, the moves he learns by leveling up are crap, making him almost useless on my Pokemon X playthrough. Tell me about Water Shuriken... And he learns it twice! Just in case you noticed it's a shitty move. Chance it'll hit 5 times my ass. It only hit 2 every time for a total of some awesome 30 damage. Then he finally learns Hydro Pump, an actually good water-type move... with 5 PP. How am I supposed to beat the Elite Four with 5 Hydro Pumps? I don't wanna use my PP Ups on that. Sucks to rely on Ethers or Elixirs when your pokemon are like 20 levels above the Elite Four.

OK, done ranting. Rowlet seems to have an amazing concept (you can read his description here) and he starts off with a signature move, Leafage, right off the bat. Looking forward to playing Pokemon with non-chibi characters and having character customization back. Which, for somewhat logical reasons, was removed in ORAS. I wonder if secret bases will still be a thing in the game though. They were kind of silly, but I enjoyed them anyways.

P.S: Alola as the name of the region is totally not a reference to "Aloha."
About the rant about Greninja...  I didn't teach him Hydro Pump, I stuck with surf, dark pulse, ice beam, and one other move i can't remember.  I didn't need other Pokemon for a good long while.  I eventually got a Protean Greninja and everything was too easy from there on.  Also, never teach Hydro Pump  to your Pokemon, it's powerful, but the accuracy kinda ruins it.

Anyways, I'm definitely going Water type again like usual, Popplio looks awesome!  It's the dog of the sea!

Pokemon Sun/Moon
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2016, 09:40:45 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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About the rant about Greninja...  I didn't teach him Hydro Pump, I stuck with surf, dark pulse, ice beam, and one other move i can't remember.  I didn't need other Pokemon for a good long while.  I eventually got a Protean Greninja and everything was too easy from there on.  Also, never teach Hydro Pump  to your Pokemon, it's powerful, but the accuracy kinda ruins it.

Anyways, I'm definitely going Water type again like usual, Popplio looks awesome!  It's the dog of the sea!

Like I said, Greninja is an awesome pokemon, but his leveling up learnset is really bad. I'm sure almost everyone changed all his moves with TMs and HMs.
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 10:04:00 AM »

    Offline Bardock

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only fuckbois are gonna pick that fugly owl real niggas go with the seal or cat
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 10:17:33 AM »

    Offline vating

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Like I said, Greninja is an awesome pokemon, but his leveling up learnset is really bad. I'm sure almost everyone changed all his moves with TMs and HMs.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure greninja learns Dark Pulse and Ice Beam later on, both fantastic moves.

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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 02:36:26 PM »

    Offline Tofu

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure greninja learns Dark Pulse and Ice Beam later on, both fantastic moves.

Nope, none of those: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Greninja_(Pok%C3%A9mon)#By_leveling_up


only fuckbois are gonna pick that fugly owl real niggas go with the seal or cat

And you're just jealous because you don't have a signature move in your starters.
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2016, 09:47:20 PM »

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Nope, none of those: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Greninja_(Pok%C3%A9mon)#By_leveling_up
Alright, and that found my fourth move, extrasensory.  You learn Extrasensory by leveling up, then throughout the game, you collect the TMs for Dark Pulse, Scald, and ice beam (All of which aren't too hard to find), and boom, you have an OP greninja.  His leveling up moves are pretty good if you're going for a physical greninja (one or two moves I'd keep), but not at all for a special one.

Pokemon Sun/Moon
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2016, 10:03:45 PM »
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Litten is a favorite?! I hate that darn thing! People complain about ugly pokemon being unoriginal, but holy CRAP It's just a black cat! There's no creativity in that! Vinilluxe was interesting in that it had a unique design, it made itself distinct among the other pocket monsters, just as every one should.

Rowlet- A grass-Flying owl? That's interesting, It possesses attributes that make it clearly distinct from noctowl.

Popplio - A sea Lion? That's something the franchise has never seen! I look forward to IT'S evoltuions.

But Litten..? It's just a stupid CAT! Just take a black cat at the pet store, and add some red rings on it's legs, and BOOM! Is that original?! And guess what? They're probably gonna troll us and make it's final evolution a Pure fighting type! >:O

I digress: What makes pocket mosnters unique is that each one is original in it's own way! I don't care about garbador, because it was DESIGNED to be ugly, and it worked! the moment you see garbador, you're not gonna confuse that with ANYTHING ELSE, because it's 100% creative (Albeit a dumb idea xD)

Meowth had that money thing going on,
Liepard had an interesting deisgn
Shinx is my favorite pokemon, BECAUSE ITS FRIGGIN SHINX, by definition it's best thing.. An electric friggin Lion/Leapard hybrid?! That's friggin amazing!

But litten is just a cat with some red on it! It looked like a fan pokemon seen off of a crappy leak, but My god, It's disgusting!


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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2016, 02:19:26 AM »

    Offline Shyruni

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Litten is a favorite?! I hate that darn thing! People complain about ugly pokemon being unoriginal, but holy CRAP It's just a black cat! There's no creativity in that! Vinilluxe was interesting in that it had a unique design, it made itself distinct among the other pocket monsters, just as every one should.

Rowlet- A grass-Flying owl? That's interesting, It possesses attributes that make it clearly distinct from noctowl.

Popplio - A sea Lion? That's something the franchise has never seen! I look forward to IT'S evoltuions.

But Litten..? It's just a stupid CAT! Just take a black cat at the pet store, and add some red rings on it's legs, and BOOM! Is that original?! And guess what? They're probably gonna troll us and make it's final evolution a Pure fighting type! >:O

I digress: What makes pocket mosnters unique is that each one is original in it's own way! I don't care about garbador, because it was DESIGNED to be ugly, and it worked! the moment you see garbador, you're not gonna confuse that with ANYTHING ELSE, because it's 100% creative (Albeit a dumb idea xD)

Meowth had that money thing going on,
Liepard had an interesting deisgn
Shinx is my favorite pokemon, BECAUSE ITS FRIGGIN SHINX, by definition it's best thing.. An electric friggin Lion/Leapard hybrid?! That's friggin amazing!

But litten is just a cat with some red on it! It looked like a fan pokemon seen off of a crappy leak, but My god, It's disgusting!

Litten is a favorite because of title alone: it's a Kitten Pokemon.  This is the freaking internet we're talking about, of COURSE the internet is going to love Litten.  Do you have any idea how many cat videos exist, it's ridiculous!

That being said, I think I'm still going to go with Litten.  Not just because it's a cat, but unlike you I do like it's design, the mix of black and red colors look interesting.  It's also a pure fire type atm, which if we're lucky, means we might get the first pure fire starter we've had in a long time.  Otherwise I'd expect Fire/Dark, but I suppose we'll see.   And finally, the idea of the kitten hacking magma furballs is sorta funny to me.
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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2016, 02:32:09 AM »

    Offline Kiyza

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I'm disappointed that all of the starters are animals that we've already seen, and almost all of them are boring mammals. Except Rowlet which is going to be my starter because I usually use grass-types anyway. @ethanvolcano21, Sealeo is a sea lion, even though it does evolve into a walrus (and Seal's line is incorrectly called "sea lion" Pokemon when they're seals instead because of the fused hind limbs).

The two legendaries have designs that are too similar to last gen's Pyroar and Noivern, not to mention there are a lot of bat Pokemon already. If we have to go with something that's already been done, couldn't we have gone for a sun dog and a moon rabbit for the pun of it?

The setting looks nice, though. I just hope it can follow up on all of the dangling plot points from the last generation, because the lore is basically the only thing keeping me motivated with Pokemon now that competitive play is an absolute mess.


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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2016, 03:44:09 AM »

    Offline Shyruni

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I'm disappointed that all of the starters are animals that we've already seen, and almost all of them are boring mammals. Except Rowlet which is going to be my starter because I usually use grass-types anyway. @ethanvolcano21, Sealeo is a sea lion, even though it does evolve into a walrus (and Seal's line is incorrectly called "sea lion" Pokemon when they're seals instead because of the fused hind limbs).

The two legendaries have designs that are too similar to last gen's Pyroar and Noivern, not to mention there are a lot of bat Pokemon already. If we have to go with something that's already been done, couldn't we have gone for a sun dog and a moon rabbit for the pun of it?

The setting looks nice, though. I just hope it can follow up on all of the dangling plot points from the last generation, because the lore is basically the only thing keeping me motivated with Pokemon now that competitive play is an absolute mess.

Not to go too off-topic, but in your opinion what exactly is it about the competitive side that is an absolute mess now?  I actually agree, while the attempt to rewrite the meta with fairy type and Mega evolution did have an impact, I feel there's just too many Pokemon now to have any form of stable competition, but I'm interested in hearing someone else's thoughts on the matter.
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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2016, 09:21:29 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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Alright, and that found my fourth move, extrasensory.  You learn Extrasensory by leveling up, then throughout the game, you collect the TMs for Dark Pulse, Scald, and ice beam (All of which aren't too hard to find), and boom, you have an OP greninja.  His leveling up moves are pretty good if you're going for a physical greninja (one or two moves I'd keep), but not at all for a special one.

And then we're back to my point. His learnset is bad. For some reason everyone change 3 or all 4 of his moves with TM and HM. I said the pokemon himself is really good, but his learnset isn't.
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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2016, 10:54:55 AM »

    Offline vating

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And then we're back to my point. His learnset is bad. For some reason everyone change 3 or all 4 of his moves with TM and HM. I said the pokemon himself is really good, but his learnset isn't.
Alright then, tell me.  How many pokemon actually have really good move sets, because I distinctly remember doing that to most, if not all of my pokemone for the majority of their moves.

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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2016, 03:35:20 PM »

    Offline Kiyza

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Not to go too off-topic, but in your opinion what exactly is it about the competitive side that is an absolute mess now?  I actually agree, while the attempt to rewrite the meta with fairy type and Mega evolution did have an impact, I feel there's just too many Pokemon now to have any form of stable competition, but I'm interested in hearing someone else's thoughts on the matter.

A combination of power inflation and too many Pokemon. I remember in Gen V, when the number of usable Pokemon for the '11 meta was like 150 something and probably like half of the fully evolved Pokemon (and some pre-evolutions because the Eviolite) were viable. Why? Because you had to create a balanced team and one with a winning strategy, and a lot of the Pokemon that generation were designed with competitive play in mind. What people generally do now is just slap on whichever Pokemon has the highest stats and/or the best abilities, then proceed to steamroll the competition.

Consider this: in Gen I, there were only a handful of really good Pokemon. Gengar, Dragonite, Alakazam, Staryu, and Mewtwo still see use in current competitive play and were great in their generation, but you can't just slap on an Exeggutor (it was good in Gen I) and call it a day. Okay, so you could if you actually were using a Mewtwo, but my point is that, internally, that team isn't balanced. There are too many glass cannons on it, too many common weaknesses, and so on. Some people complain about Dragon-types getting a disproportionate number of good Pokemon, but I ask you to consider this: is that really that bad? Because even though they're all really good Pokemon and fill different niches, you'd have to be crazy to run a Dragonite, Salamence, and Garchomp on the same team because they all have a 4x weakness to ice. Similarly, a lot of legendary Pokemon are Psychic-type, and even though Cresselia and Azelf are both good Pokemon and legal to use, it makes no sense to use both at the same time because of the shared typing.

As time went on, we got a lot more variety in the Pokemon in the games. Not to mention, a lot of Pokemon from later generations were introduced with stats optimized for competitive play. Take a look at the base stat values for Gen I Pokemon compared to Gen V Pokemon. You'll notice that there are a lot more Pokemon in Gen I with balanced physical and special attack stats, but in later generations, there are very few of these balanced Pokemon, because it's rare in competitive play for a Pokemon to run a mixed physical and special set. Pokemon from later generations tend to be a lot better built than earlier ones, and some 'mons in particular are designed with a gimmick that's only really useful in competitive battling, like how Cinccino learns almost every multi-hit attack in the game because it has Skill Link as its hidden ability.

Basically, it boils down to Pokemon from later generations getting better and better. Very, very few Pokemon from Gen I would even be viable if it wasn't for things that they got in later generations. The only reason anyone ever touches Clefable and Cloyster are because Clefable is Fairy-type and Cloyster has the same Skill Link gimmick that Cinccino does on top of Shell Smash, one of the best stat boosting moves in the game. Even Mewtwo is considered borderline useless without its Mega evolution. Competitive play has really gotten to the point that you practically can't use anything that's not sitting in the topmost tier, and attempts to do so will generally get you weeded out simply because strategy and knowledge don't matter when your opponent is going to one-shot your entire team. Part of the reason weaker Pokemon are weak is because the game essentially revolves around sweeping your opponent as quickly as possible. The only setups are usually to boost speed and attack or special attack so you can one-shot everyone regardless. The variety in Pokemon doesn't really matter anymore, and curiously enough, Mega evolutions, which were supposed to fix the issue, have only made it worse. Why would you ever consider using Mega Beedrill when it removes the opportunity to use Mega Kangaskhan or Mega Mawile?

tl;dr: here are the teams used to win the last three years of VGC. Tell me this isn't a problem, I dare you.



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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2016, 01:05:25 AM »

    Offline Shyruni

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A combination of power inflation and too many Pokemon. I remember in Gen V, when the number of usable Pokemon for the '11 meta was like 150 something and probably like half of the fully evolved Pokemon (and some pre-evolutions because the Eviolite) were viable. Why? Because you had to create a balanced team and one with a winning strategy, and a lot of the Pokemon that generation were designed with competitive play in mind. What people generally do now is just slap on whichever Pokemon has the highest stats and/or the best abilities, then proceed to steamroll the competition.

Consider this: in Gen I, there were only a handful of really good Pokemon. Gengar, Dragonite, Alakazam, Staryu, and Mewtwo still see use in current competitive play and were great in their generation, but you can't just slap on an Exeggutor (it was good in Gen I) and call it a day. Okay, so you could if you actually were using a Mewtwo, but my point is that, internally, that team isn't balanced. There are too many glass cannons on it, too many common weaknesses, and so on. Some people complain about Dragon-types getting a disproportionate number of good Pokemon, but I ask you to consider this: is that really that bad? Because even though they're all really good Pokemon and fill different niches, you'd have to be crazy to run a Dragonite, Salamence, and Garchomp on the same team because they all have a 4x weakness to ice. Similarly, a lot of legendary Pokemon are Psychic-type, and even though Cresselia and Azelf are both good Pokemon and legal to use, it makes no sense to use both at the same time because of the shared typing.

As time went on, we got a lot more variety in the Pokemon in the games. Not to mention, a lot of Pokemon from later generations were introduced with stats optimized for competitive play. Take a look at the base stat values for Gen I Pokemon compared to Gen V Pokemon. You'll notice that there are a lot more Pokemon in Gen I with balanced physical and special attack stats, but in later generations, there are very few of these balanced Pokemon, because it's rare in competitive play for a Pokemon to run a mixed physical and special set. Pokemon from later generations tend to be a lot better built than earlier ones, and some 'mons in particular are designed with a gimmick that's only really useful in competitive battling, like how Cinccino learns almost every multi-hit attack in the game because it has Skill Link as its hidden ability.

Basically, it boils down to Pokemon from later generations getting better and better. Very, very few Pokemon from Gen I would even be viable if it wasn't for things that they got in later generations. The only reason anyone ever touches Clefable and Cloyster are because Clefable is Fairy-type and Cloyster has the same Skill Link gimmick that Cinccino does on top of Shell Smash, one of the best stat boosting moves in the game. Even Mewtwo is considered borderline useless without its Mega evolution. Competitive play has really gotten to the point that you practically can't use anything that's not sitting in the topmost tier, and attempts to do so will generally get you weeded out simply because strategy and knowledge don't matter when your opponent is going to one-shot your entire team. Part of the reason weaker Pokemon are weak is because the game essentially revolves around sweeping your opponent as quickly as possible. The only setups are usually to boost speed and attack or special attack so you can one-shot everyone regardless. The variety in Pokemon doesn't really matter anymore, and curiously enough, Mega evolutions, which were supposed to fix the issue, have only made it worse. Why would you ever consider using Mega Beedrill when it removes the opportunity to use Mega Kangaskhan or Mega Mawile?

tl;dr: here are the teams used to win the last three years of VGC. Tell me this isn't a problem, I dare you.



Yeah, I think you hit the nail right on the head here.  I'm not entirely sure whether Gen V or Gen VI hurt it more, but there's definitely a certainly degree of upward movement per game.  Tbh, I think what makes it a bit more difficult is I don't really think the creators of Pokemon care that much about the Meta.  Even though the Pokemon they create get "better", the most they do to fix balancing issues is slapping in new Pokemon that often end up simply replacing someone else in the higher tiers.

My hope for Gen VI was that the fairy type would help to a decent degree, as at the time of Gen V, Fighting, Dark, and Dragon were all VERY common types in the Meta.  The problem was that 90% of the Fairy types we got barely reached UU, and most of them weren't competent in the Meta, so they didn't change much.

As for Dragon types in particular, I think part of their problem is that they keep getting better in many regards.  Dragonite was already good at the start, but then he got a ability in Gen V that buffed his defenses, making even ice moves not insta-KO when you want them to.  In Gen VI, MANY Dragon types got Megas, some of them unnecessary and ridiculous.  While I don't think the concept of a more used type is necessarily bad, but it can also lessen the effectiveness of certain other types.  That being said, I still think Dragons aren't quite the problem they were in Gens IIII-V.

I think the only way to seriously fix the meta at this point would be to give the whole Pokemon list a complete change, changing the stats of literally almost every Pokemon to balance them out.  But I think I've gone on a bit much of a tangent, guess the whole announcement thing has got me a bit hyped.   :umbraxd:

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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2016, 01:53:44 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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And this, GameFreak, is what happens when you don't balance the characters in your game. I'm not a big fan of competitive Pokemon, but I still enjoy it so I might be able to make some not-so-useless comments here.

Sorta reminds me of the current League of Legends meta... For those of you who don't play it (or any MOBAs at all), I'll try to do a basic explanation. Two teams, with five members on each, aim to destroy the enemy base. The game has over 120 characters (or champions, how they're called in League) and yet, in professional play, 3 roles basically have the same 3 characters picked all the time. Riot, the company in charge of League, actually released a patch not long ago that has big changes to the game mechanics just to try to stop that from happening again.

I guess it's a common issue with games played by a lot of people. They try to "balance" things out and end up messing everything up. The problem with Pokemon is that they can't just patch the problem and fix it, or else they would've made that already. I don't think they really want EVERYONE to be forced to play Mega Kangaskhan. Instead, they have to wait for a whole new generation to get it fixed or at least try to sorta do something on the remake games of the same gen.

As I said, I'm not a big fan of competitive Pokemon, but I've played League of Legends competitively for 4 or 5 years now and I'm quite familiar with the whole balancing the meta process. I'm just sharing my point of view, which might be wrong. Maybe they did want everyone to play Kangaskhan.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 02:10:24 AM by Tofu »
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« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2016, 06:21:49 AM »

    Offline Kiyza

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Yeah, I think you hit the nail right on the head here.  I'm not entirely sure whether Gen V or Gen VI hurt it more, but there's definitely a certainly degree of upward movement per game.  Tbh, I think what makes it a bit more difficult is I don't really think the creators of Pokemon care that much about the Meta.  Even though the Pokemon they create get "better", the most they do to fix balancing issues is slapping in new Pokemon that often end up simply replacing someone else in the higher tiers.

My hope for Gen VI was that the fairy type would help to a decent degree, as at the time of Gen V, Fighting, Dark, and Dragon were all VERY common types in the Meta.  The problem was that 90% of the Fairy types we got barely reached UU, and most of them weren't competent in the Meta, so they didn't change much.

As for Dragon types in particular, I think part of their problem is that they keep getting better in many regards.  Dragonite was already good at the start, but then he got a ability in Gen V that buffed his defenses, making even ice moves not insta-KO when you want them to.  In Gen VI, MANY Dragon types got Megas, some of them unnecessary and ridiculous.  While I don't think the concept of a more used type is necessarily bad, but it can also lessen the effectiveness of certain other types.  That being said, I still think Dragons aren't quite the problem they were in Gens IIII-V.

I think the only way to seriously fix the meta at this point would be to give the whole Pokemon list a complete change, changing the stats of literally almost every Pokemon to balance them out.  But I think I've gone on a bit much of a tangent, guess the whole announcement thing has got me a bit hyped.   :umbraxd:

I'm gonna offer an opposing opinion for that first bit. The problem with Pokemon is that the dev teams do care about the meta now, at least when assigning things like stats, abilities and movepools. If I'm remembering correctly, Aromatisse was actually designed to be used in Trick Room, which is why it has base 29 speed instead of the much more common (and even) base 30 -- to outspeed opponents when using that setup. Both of its abilities are also optimized for doubles teams, which Trick Room is most often used, and it's a Fairy-type to boot.

If you don't believe me when I said more and more Pokemon are being made with the meta in mind, look at Klefki, Aegislash, Greninja, Talonflame, and Glawitzer. They were all very clearly made with some trait that wouldn't be particularly important in a standard playthrough, especially since some are reliant on hidden abilities, but makes them shine to the point that Smogon and such decided they needed to be on a banned list. The same goes for a lot of Mega evolutions -- they're made to be used competitively more than for standard play. They've even made breeding perfect Pokemon easy enough that anyone with the patience can do it.

That said, they still screwed up in a lot of places. It's clear that some things that were meant to balance the meta, like Fairy-types existing and changes to type matchups, ultimately didn't do much. Most Pokemon that got turned into Fairy-types already had really low base stats, as did most of the ones that were introduced in Gen VI. They can't counter anything because of their inability to keep up, unless they have a really specific niche like Azumarill.

Also, I don't even think that Dragon-type megas were that bad, barring Mega Rayquaza ruining no rules sets forever and Mega Salamence existing. Mega Garchomp is widely considered useless because it means you can't run a Garchomp with a scarf and its speed stat decreases with its Mega. A lot of the other Dragon-type megas -- like Sceptile, Ampharos, and and Mega Charizard X -- are rarely seen because that not especially good compared to other options.

Basically, what it all boils down to is that GameFreak artificially created Pokemon that were meant to be good. There was definitely no playtesting involved for any of this, and they won't just patch things out when they're too good like most games that are played competitively. On top of that, their general solution isn't to nerf things that are too good, it's to make bad things better, which just compounds the problem. It's not feasible to make 720 Pokemon and counting better, and there are too many things in the game to account for when it comes to balance because Pokemon is so rock-paper-scissors oriented.

And this, GameFreak, is what happens when you don't balance the characters in your game. I'm not a big fan of competitive Pokemon, but I still enjoy it so I might be able to make some not-so-useless comments here.

Sorta reminds me of the current League of Legends meta... For those of you who don't play it (or any MOBAs at all), I'll try to do a basic explanation. Two teams, with five members on each, aim to destroy the enemy base. The game has over 120 characters (or champions, how they're called in League) and yet, in professional play, 3 roles basically have the same 3 characters picked all the time. Riot, the company in charge of League, actually released a patch not long ago that has big changes to the game mechanics just to try to stop that from happening again.

I guess it's a common issue with games played by a lot of people. They try to "balance" things out and end up messing everything up. The problem with Pokemon is that they can't just patch the problem and fix it, or else they would've made that already. I don't think they really want EVERYONE to be forced to play Mega Kangaskhan. Instead, they have to wait for a whole new generation to get it fixed or at least try to sorta do something on the remake games of the same gen.

As I said, I'm not a big fan of competitive Pokemon, but I've played League of Legends competitively for 4 or 5 years now and I'm quite familiar with the whole balancing the meta process. I'm just sharing my point of view, which might be wrong. Maybe they did want everyone to play Kangaskhan.

I've actually heard on the grapevine that League of Legends is a weird case because they're not really trying to "balance" the game with their patches -- they're trying to intentionally unbalance the game so that people have a reason to play different characters and use different strategies, because this keeps the meta from stagnating.

But the basic principle of this is true, and the problem is two-fold. The first is that it gets exponentially more difficult to balance a game the more characters you have -- literally. It means that there are that many more matchups to account for, and in Pokemon, it just gets worse because you don't just have a pre-set character. You have options on top of that which can make or break you. Sometimes it's simple things like choosing between Surf and Hydro Pump, but with others, you can completely change your strategy. Blaziken's Speed Boost is useful for just attacking, yeah, but it's also viable to use it in tandem with Baton Pass, so you have to account for factors like that.

The other issue in play is that you can't really gauge how people are going to use certain things until after they've already been put in play. I doubt that GameFreak's dev team could have predicted that people were going to run Power-Up Punch on Mega Kangaskhan, let alone that this gimmick would have such a huge impact on the meta. It's not helped by the fact that they obviously aren't playtesting their games, so once something is set in the middle of development, that's the way it stays. No updates, no balance patches. The only thing we've ever gotten in that vein (that I can remember) was a bugfix for Sky Drop in the middle of Gen V. The worst part is that by the time they decide to actually fix old stuff, we get a bunch of new toys to play around with because the next generation is out, and a Pokemon that's amazing for one generation can often fall from grace.

A game with a meta that's actually well-balanced is rare occurrence. The number of games I've seen where every character is viable for competitive play can probably be counted on one hand. I've noticed that a lot of people also don't care about this too much, and to be honest, I'm kind of in the same boat. What I care about isn't an ability to use anything I want, but any general strategy or playstyle I want and succeed with it. If I want to play a tank in a multiplayer game and there's only one viable character that's a tank, then I'll use that character. The problem is when there are no tanks at all and the only usable characters are glass cannons -- and that's exactly what the issue with Pokemon's meta is.


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« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2016, 12:45:45 PM »

    Offline Jak

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Ah yes. Pokemon. Nintendo's "Madden". So they're releasing yet another roster update? Neat.