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Topic: Did Goku Become too Strong?  (Read 6166 times)

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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« on: September 22, 2015, 11:42:47 PM »

    Offline Kiyza

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Alright DBOR, I’m coming at you with another of my meta serious business discussion questions.

I mean, let’s take this in abstract. Dragon Ball is, at its crux, a story about progression, growth, and improving yourself. But at what point does that go too far? Can it go too far?

Let me be clear when I say that I’m not talking about how characters can destroy planets with energy attacks (though you could certainly make a case for that, I don’t think that’s an issue, though I’d like to leave it open for discussion if anyone wants to touch on it). I’m talking about whether or not Goku’s power in particular (and Vegeta’s, come to think of it -- everyone else has kind of been shafted, delegated to fighting mooks with Kame-Sennin in Resurrection ‘F’) has reached the point, or soon will, where you can’t really go any further up. Dragon Ball, as a series, relies on the fact that there’s always some greater challenge for the characters in it. There’s always someone better than you and you have to surpass them. Some members of the main cast have surpassed the gods themselves, barring two characters -- Beerus and Whis. It was only a third of the way through the series that the gods started being established as weaker than the protagonists, so this is nothing new, but it begs the question of where exactly we’re going to get new villains from that don’t feel like repeats of the old. We’ve done martial artists, demons, aliens, cyborgs, genetic engineering, and magical entities, and we seem to have hit the absolute threshold of power with a God of Destruction and his superior. If Goku ever surpasses Beerus or Whis, then what challenge is left? Doesn’t it get rid of the point of the series if Goku ever becomes the strongest?

On the same note, it’s obvious that with their Super Cyan forms, Goku and Vegeta are head and shoulders above the rest of the series’ cast. Bringing others up to their level through some naughtyword power-up is always possible, but that might do more harm than good in some people’s eyes. This is the type of series where characters that can’t keep up strength-wise tend to stagnate and disappear into obscurity, or be delegated to a supporting role. I, personally, don’t think that the series can survive if it becomes the Goku and Vegeta show. Dragon Ball’s supporting cast has always been one of its strongest selling points, and two characters hogging the spotlight might be fine for a movie, but we have a weekly series now. At the moment, I think we’re all on a high note because a lot of us simply haven’t had to wait for a constant influx of new content out of the series, but what happens when that high wears off? Focusing on Goku and Vegeta too much was arguably one of the worst things about GT, and while I know that fans aren’t going to want me to compare Super to it, I ask you to consider the possibility that it could end up that way.

The question is simple: did Goku become too strong? Will he become too strong? Share your thoughts.


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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2015, 12:01:47 AM »
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Simple answer... : YES.

Bruh...he became a God...Vegeta too....
Dunno where DBS is going too but if they should add another God into this which has to been fought against then they surely become stronger. For now we have that Fat Beerus. Dunno if he is stronger than Beerus. Or if they would have to fight him...

So basically: Yes they have become too strong. Other DBZ fighters are ants. And maybe they will become much stronger depending on how DBS is going to be. We know that it'll contain BoG, F and i read somewhere a third "arc". Dunno what that will be about tho. And also...maybe...they could make another movie in which Goku reaches another form of ssj god...or becomes stronger as SSJGSSJ (maybe Vegeta too).
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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2015, 02:41:12 AM »

    Offline Nia

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I think it's a little bit of yes and no.

Let's be honest here... the majority of the series has always been "stuff goes bad, Goku beats everyone." Sure, the others had their moments, but it usually ended with Goku arriving at the last moment, and getting the crap beat out of him, doing something cool, and beating the bad guy.
Sure, there were moments like Kuririn using Goku's Genki-dama, and even the occasion where Gohan actually ended the fight, but even in the original Dragon Ball, it usually came down to Goku. Even what I imagine is Kiyza's favorite arc (the Piccolo Daimao storyline), in the end, none of the other characters even remotely could match Goku.
When Z rolled around, the others became more and more regulated to being side characters. They still got to do their thing once in a while, but by the end, it was mostly about Goku and Vegeta. A character would usually beat the pants off an enemy, then it was revealed "THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM!" and things would reverse.

As for GT... even Vegeta was useless in that, and his biggest contribution was pretty much serving as a power up for Goku. We didn't even really get the "THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM!" moments in GT.

As for DBS? ...I'll admit, so far it seems to be falling a bit short of my expectations. While most of the humor is top-notch, it feels like it's already lost that "family" vibe the first few episodes had. We know in the end, it's gonna be Goku and Vegeta that always pull the victory out of their asses (hell, even the one time Gohan finished off the villain, it's only because Goku told him to, and Vegeta gave him an opening to do so).
Hopefully it'll pick up with the Golden Freeza arc. Even if the other characters are regulated to fighting the minions, that's kinda what they always were doing. And I appreciate that much, at least, especially when they tell Yamcha and Chaozu to stay out of things, but here's derpy old Kame'senin.
I just hope that it at least feels fun to watch, because most of the DBS fighting I've seen thus far didn't really get me hyped. Even Battle of Gods was fun to watch when everyone was failing against Beerus.

As for if Goku surpasses Beerus and Whis? Considering that the series always pulled stronger villains out of nowhere, I'm sure he wouldn't remain the strongest for long.
Either that, or he and Vegeta would go cause a supernova, likely killing both of them (I feel like I'm referencing something there).
I mean, technically speaking, Goku was the strongest for nearly two decades. He had vastly surpassed Kid Buu, and who knows how ridiculously powerful he was when he fought Uub, even before BoG popped up and caused more insane mayhem?


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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2015, 03:51:39 AM »

    Offline Kiyza

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I think it's a little bit of yes and no.

Let's be honest here... the majority of the series has always been "stuff goes bad, Goku beats everyone." Sure, the others had their moments, but it usually ended with Goku arriving at the last moment, and getting the crap beat out of him, doing something cool, and beating the bad guy.
Sure, there were moments like Kuririn using Goku's Genki-dama, and even the occasion where Gohan actually ended the fight, but even in the original Dragon Ball, it usually came down to Goku. Even what I imagine is Kiyza's favorite arc (the Piccolo Daimao storyline), in the end, none of the other characters even remotely could match Goku.

I want you to remember a few things about early Dragon Ball, though. Namely, that characters who weren't Goku were still allowed to be relevant to the plot and got ample amounts of screen time and character development. Even if it's ultimately Goku that's going to be in the final round of a Tenkaichi Budokai, he's not completely hogging the spotlight because we still do get to see others fight, we still do get to see them do something. They're not left to rot in the background or reduced to comic relief. Consequently, I think this is one of the reasons that the whole Red Ribbon arc is so poorly received. It's the Goku show, guest starring the damsel in distress! Or at least that's how a good chunk of it pans out, as the supporting cast is sidelined for a good chunk of that arc.

The Piccolo Daimao arc is indeed my favorite story arc, but I want to reiterate here that I'm not disgruntled with Goku getting the final blow against the villain. I'm concerned with two things -- Goku sidelining the other characters in the series by merit of being stronger and the series simply running out of bigger threats. The supporting cast in the Piccolo Daimao arc wasn't sidelined. On the contrary, Goku is partially out of commission for a good chunk of the story and everyone is up against a villain they have no chance of beating with brute strength. One of my favorite aspects of the story arc is that they try not one but two ways of defeating Piccolo Daimao that don't involve hitting him really hard. It fails, but it's worth a mention that the only time some indirect course of action like this is considered is when Vegeta wants to wish for immortality. If they could bring back story elements like that, this issue could end up being mitigated as it would give weaker characters something to do, but I don't feel like that's a direction anyone wants to go in.

When Z rolled around, the others became more and more regulated to being side characters. They still got to do their thing once in a while, but by the end, it was mostly about Goku and Vegeta. A character would usually beat the pants off an enemy, then it was revealed "THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM!" and things would reverse.

No, it really wasn't. The majority of the supporting cast managed to be relevant against the Saiyans, regardless of whether or not it was a losing battle. They're the ones that get the attention, their hopeless struggle what takes up the screen/panel time. The Namek arc has a lot of Gohan and Kuririn zipping around Namek and they share the focus along with Vegeta. The Earthling cast kind of disappears around the time we start seeing the cyborgdroids and Cell, but Piccolo remains a serious player for a good chunk of it and we start seeing attention being delegated to Trunks and Gohan, and Goku is ultimately defeated and doesn't pick up the slack. The Boo arc sidelines Goku for a good chunk of it, divvying up the starring role between Gotenks and Gohan (and gives Vegeta the finale to his character arc -- when he at last accepts that he's a family man and sacrifices himself) until finally settling on Goku.

Compare that to Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F'. While other characters are involved in the story, it's ultimately Goku and Vegeta that get to do the fighting, and since this is an action series, they therefore get the most attention. This is fine for a movie, which has a run time of a meager... what, 80 minutes I'm guessing? You have significantly less time to spread out to the rest of the cast. However, Super is several episodes into the fight with Beerus in the anime, which is already probably longer than the whole run time of Battle of Gods. Even though they have more time to dedicate to other cast members, they're probably still not going to do it. Resurrection 'F' offers a lot more in this prospect because there's an opportunity to do more with the supporting cast than have them fight villains for a brief moment since there's more time for the mook fights to be spread out with, but it remains to be seen how that's handled.

As for DBS? ...I'll admit, so far it seems to be falling a bit short of my expectations. While most of the humor is top-notch, it feels like it's already lost that "family" vibe the first few episodes had. We know in the end, it's gonna be Goku and Vegeta that always pull the victory out of their asses (hell, even the one time Gohan finished off the villain, it's only because Goku told him to, and Vegeta gave him an opening to do so).
Hopefully it'll pick up with the Golden Freeza arc. Even if the other characters are regulated to fighting the minions, that's kinda what they always were doing. And I appreciate that much, at least, especially when they tell Yamcha and Chaozu to stay out of things, but here's derpy old Kame'senin.

I should probably mention that my issue with fighting minions has less to do with the fact that they're fighting minions and more with the fact that it's largely plowing through waves of minions, which feels uneventful. Even when everyone's fighting the Saibaimen and Nappa, there's this underlying sense of hopelessness that keeps the whole thing engaging. The soldiers don't feel like they're a risk for the most part and are ultimately just living punching bags, something for the characters to hit to show off. Simply giving a character a moment to throw a punch isn't what's going to entertain me, or even really keep the characters relevant. If I had a choice between Piccolo's role as a mentor and straight men to Gotenks and all of the amusement I got out of that story arc and a few shots against minions, I'd take the former any day of the week. If the supporting cast even used in a way like that, I'd be much more appreciative of it.

As for if Goku surpasses Beerus and Whis? Considering that the series always pulled stronger villains out of nowhere, I'm sure he wouldn't remain the strongest for long.
Either that, or he and Vegeta would go cause a supernova, likely killing both of them (I feel like I'm referencing something there).

I want this to be the finale to Super. Dear Dende do I need this to be the finale to Super. Just a meager 22 minutes, truncated from normal fight lengths so that it's short and sweet and feels more meaningful, with all of the money they can gather blown on it. Please?

*ahem* That said, while I do feel like, yes, there are certainly villains that can be pulled out of asses, the story is still attempting to establish Beerus and Whis as apex of strength, the absolute threshold for it. Even with Super Cyan and Whis' training, they're still not in his league. What might be suspending disbelief more is how exactly Goku and Vegeta would get to that level, considering we're at the point where I don't think the power-ups can really go any further than "god". I mean, there's always fusion (and honestly, we might see it), but I honestly think it's better if no one ever does reach their levels. It reinforces the notion that there's always someone better than you that the series runs with.


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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2015, 04:31:49 AM »

    Offline Bardock

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Clearly not he got the shit beaten out of him by beerus XD
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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2015, 05:43:31 AM »

    Offline Manphu

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Clearly not he got the shit beaten out of him by beerus XD

We have to wait for the "real" fight in episode 12. Clearly now Goku, will fight for real with beerus using 100% oh his power.

As about the previous posts. I can't write too much because i am afraid that i won't make much sense.However here is my opinion.

For me the Z was the following plot. Z fighters trying to beat villains or struggling with no hope but Goku. Goku arrives late , some people died, Goku gets beat up. And finally Goku gets to a corner, with the result to gain just enough energy to kill his opponent.

Not trying to say that this thing didn't happen to DragonBall , but come on , the fights in The Budokais were awesome , the plot and the build up for the last battle. Z lacks that (in my opinion). Foe example the fight of Master Roshi against Tien. It was not a fight to win ,but a fight to get Tien understand that the road he took up until now was wrong and he was meant to be a lot more. The thing with DragonBall was not that they were not OverPowered , i mean Roshi blew up the moon in like episode 23?.

To sum up. Goku will become even stronger, Vegeta also. RoF is a prove to that. Sadly i believe that every single Character except those two will go to being "just there". I would love to see Krillin Tien Roshi Yamcha (yes, Yamcha believe it or not Yamcha is for me a decent fighter , the thing is that he Krillin and Tien don't have the means to reach the level Goku/Vegeta/Gohan are. Simply because Toriyama chose it to be like that.) make some awesome fights with Villains while Goku/Vegeta are away training whith Whis.

Also . i just remembered something. In DBMultiverse we are seeing Krillin being the Turtle Hermit , Yamcha and Tien being very strong(Well they are Cyborgs/Androids but that didn't matter). Especially Krillin . Man what moves, being able to use the Turtle Shell like that. I would love to see that in DBS. Roshi passing the Rod to Krillin making him his successor. Krillin being the next Turtle Hermit who teaches martial arts , just like his old master did. Oh god i would pay all my savings to see an outcome like this.

Sadly this is not going to happen. Goku will just become more powerful by the day, surpassing Beerus wouldn't surprise me at this point. He already is too strong in my opinion. Maybe i got away of the topic with this reply but i couldn't handle it, seeing my beloved character(Krillin, Tien , Gohan, Roshi, Yamcha) get their ass handed to them in the first 5 seconds of every fight. You know except the one with Freeza's Minions. It was really nice to see Roshi be a part of this. However i believe they just made Krillin a punching bag, he just got beaten up. So yeah. Goku is already too Strong , Vegeta will be also too Strong. New villains will just so powerful that only Goku and Vegeta will be able to land a punch. The end...

(Man i too wrote something big, not really sure if i make sense though.)

Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2015, 07:07:40 AM »

    Offline Vegeta

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I agree with all .

Goku and vegeta are too strong now . The z fighters including gohan ect are pointless filler chars now as they are far too behind strength wise ( just like tian , Yamcha ect at the freeza saga , excluding tien holding cell off once )

They are going have to open it up into the different dimensions that they mention at the end of BOG . That's the only way I can see it being interesting as goku and vegeta fighting other dimensions strongest .

They may as well kill off the z fighters as it's embarrassing watching them suffer this much . Gohan was always a hidden gem along with goten and trunks / gotenks . But now they are just noobs
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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2015, 08:02:20 AM »

    Offline Komatsuna

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This is the first time i've actually read a huge-text-thread (let's just call it like that) and i agree with you. they are too strong and there aren't any original opponents to fight against. nothing more to say.

Perfect... another one of those guys.

Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2015, 08:34:07 AM »

    Offline Vegeta

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I've just got up to speed on the manga . They are deco bringing in the other 11 universes into play which is good .
That sorbet guy ( little guy that shoots goku) wants to revive freeza so they are bringing in ROF also which should be good .

The other 2 gods are in the comics and not in the anime yet
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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2015, 12:42:18 PM »

    Offline Shiro

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Well...  from what I understand, I don't think that Goku neither Vegeta will become stronger than Whiz and Beerus, I mean if they did then it would be ridiculous. It was cool how Beerus was all bad ass on Resurection of F, literally showing that if he wanted to, he could obliterate everyone there. As Kiyza said, what would be left to surpass if you surpass a God?  As for Gohan and the others... I honestly don't know how they will be useful now that the new whole "God" level was brought up ._. Perhaps they will dress as cheerleaders and cheer for Goku and Vegeta XD  (They already do that thought, except they don't have the costumes lol)
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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2015, 12:53:25 PM »
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Goku is the main Protagonist, it's normal for the main protagonist to have the most shine in a anime|Tv Show

                            

Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2015, 01:34:18 PM »
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Goku is the main Protagonist, it's normal for the main protagonist to have the most shine in a anime|Tv Show



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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2015, 02:21:24 PM »
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Dont forget about the dangalang. Lmao I miss these videos. Dude was funny as hell wish he kept making more

He hates his fans for some reason...I wouldn't have a problem voice acting for dbz episodes for money and fame xD
                            

Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2015, 12:48:43 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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Well, Goku and Vegeta have basically become overpowered, becoming so strong that the other characters are just useless.

I think Toriyama wanted to make it a Goku and Vegeta show for some reason, thus making them gods and having Gohan, Gotekns, and all the characters that could still put up a fight look useless in comparison. I didn't like this from the movies, and I hope Toriyama makes something good about it in Super because I'd hate to have the whole series Goku-and-Vegeta-centered.

I am yet to watch RoF but BoG was good, as a movie. Like you said, having an overpowered Goku that makes everyone else useless might be good for a movie but not a show.

As to the question of "Can Goku become stronger?" I'm quite sure he can... As long as there's a stronger being out there, he'll become stronger for sure. Beerus is a god and so is Goku (and apparently Vegeta too), which means his powers should eventually be enough to put up a fight. Once that happens, they might finally be as strong as possible.
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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2015, 02:44:05 AM »

    Offline Nia

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I know I shouldn't make this terrible joke but...

>inb4 Goku surpasses Beerus and Whis, and then Super Gods start showing up.


"I am the bone of my sword
 Steel is my body and fire is my blood
 I have created over a thousand blades
 Unknown to Death, Nor known to Life
 Have withstood pain to create many weapons
 Yet, those hands will never hold anything
 So as I pray, Unlimited Blade Works."

Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2015, 04:53:35 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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I know I shouldn't make this terrible joke but...

>inb4 Goku surpasses Beerus and Whis, and then Super Gods start showing up.

Hence the name of the series? :P
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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2015, 05:16:14 AM »

    Offline Nia

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Hence the name of the series? :P


Well, I walked into that one.


"I am the bone of my sword
 Steel is my body and fire is my blood
 I have created over a thousand blades
 Unknown to Death, Nor known to Life
 Have withstood pain to create many weapons
 Yet, those hands will never hold anything
 So as I pray, Unlimited Blade Works."

Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2015, 08:32:13 AM »

    Offline Umbrax

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Alright DBOR, I’m coming at you with another of my meta serious business discussion questions.

I mean, let’s take this in abstract. Dragon Ball is, at its crux, a story about progression, growth, and improving yourself. But at what point does that go too far? Can it go too far?

Let me be clear when I say that I’m not talking about how characters can destroy planets with energy attacks (though you could certainly make a case for that, I don’t think that’s an issue, though I’d like to leave it open for discussion if anyone wants to touch on it). I’m talking about whether or not Goku’s power in particular (and Vegeta’s, come to think of it -- everyone else has kind of been shafted, delegated to fighting mooks with Kame-Sennin in Resurrection ‘F’) has reached the point, or soon will, where you can’t really go any further up. Dragon Ball, as a series, relies on the fact that there’s always some greater challenge for the characters in it. There’s always someone better than you and you have to surpass them. Some members of the main cast have surpassed the gods themselves, barring two characters -- Beerus and Whis. It was only a third of the way through the series that the gods started being established as weaker than the protagonists, so this is nothing new, but it begs the question of where exactly we’re going to get new villains from that don’t feel like repeats of the old. We’ve done martial artists, demons, aliens, cyborgs, genetic engineering, and magical entities, and we seem to have hit the absolute threshold of power with a God of Destruction and his superior. If Goku ever surpasses Beerus or Whis, then what challenge is left? Doesn’t it get rid of the point of the series if Goku ever becomes the strongest?

On the same note, it’s obvious that with their Super Cyan forms, Goku and Vegeta are head and shoulders above the rest of the series’ cast. Bringing others up to their level through some popo power-up is always possible, but that might do more harm than good in some people’s eyes. This is the type of series where characters that can’t keep up strength-wise tend to stagnate and disappear into obscurity, or be delegated to a supporting role. I, personally, don’t think that the series can survive if it becomes the Goku and Vegeta show. Dragon Ball’s supporting cast has always been one of its strongest selling points, and two characters hogging the spotlight might be fine for a movie, but we have a weekly series now. At the moment, I think we’re all on a high note because a lot of us simply haven’t had to wait for a constant influx of new content out of the series, but what happens when that high wears off? Focusing on Goku and Vegeta too much was arguably one of the worst things about GT, and while I know that fans aren’t going to want me to compare Super to it, I ask you to consider the possibility that it could end up that way.

The question is simple: did Goku become too strong? Will he become too strong? Share your thoughts.

isn't that the joke of the series/constant?




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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2015, 03:36:24 AM »

    Offline Shyruni

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Alright DBOR, I’m coming at you with another of my meta serious business discussion questions.

I mean, let’s take this in abstract. Dragon Ball is, at its crux, a story about progression, growth, and improving yourself. But at what point does that go too far? Can it go too far?

Let me be clear when I say that I’m not talking about how characters can destroy planets with energy attacks (though you could certainly make a case for that, I don’t think that’s an issue, though I’d like to leave it open for discussion if anyone wants to touch on it). I’m talking about whether or not Goku’s power in particular (and Vegeta’s, come to think of it -- everyone else has kind of been shafted, delegated to fighting mooks with Kame-Sennin in Resurrection ‘F’) has reached the point, or soon will, where you can’t really go any further up. Dragon Ball, as a series, relies on the fact that there’s always some greater challenge for the characters in it. There’s always someone better than you and you have to surpass them. Some members of the main cast have surpassed the gods themselves, barring two characters -- Beerus and Whis. It was only a third of the way through the series that the gods started being established as weaker than the protagonists, so this is nothing new, but it begs the question of where exactly we’re going to get new villains from that don’t feel like repeats of the old. We’ve done martial artists, demons, aliens, cyborgs, genetic engineering, and magical entities, and we seem to have hit the absolute threshold of power with a God of Destruction and his superior. If Goku ever surpasses Beerus or Whis, then what challenge is left? Doesn’t it get rid of the point of the series if Goku ever becomes the strongest?

On the same note, it’s obvious that with their Super Cyan forms, Goku and Vegeta are head and shoulders above the rest of the series’ cast. Bringing others up to their level through some popo power-up is always possible, but that might do more harm than good in some people’s eyes. This is the type of series where characters that can’t keep up strength-wise tend to stagnate and disappear into obscurity, or be delegated to a supporting role. I, personally, don’t think that the series can survive if it becomes the Goku and Vegeta show. Dragon Ball’s supporting cast has always been one of its strongest selling points, and two characters hogging the spotlight might be fine for a movie, but we have a weekly series now. At the moment, I think we’re all on a high note because a lot of us simply haven’t had to wait for a constant influx of new content out of the series, but what happens when that high wears off? Focusing on Goku and Vegeta too much was arguably one of the worst things about GT, and while I know that fans aren’t going to want me to compare Super to it, I ask you to consider the possibility that it could end up that way.

The question is simple: did Goku become too strong? Will he become too strong? Share your thoughts.

This was actually one of my biggest issues with GT as a whole.  First off, he was so insanely powerful that he just wrecked EVERYTHING in his way, I don't think he even went Super Saiyan once for the majority of the first season (if my memory serves).  Granted Dragon Ball had this too, but Goku was still weaker in terms of a worldy scale of power.  In GT he was already past DBZ, so he was a living planet nuke that just blew up everything in his way.

Then they had to create a villain that would be very difficult for Goku to pass, so they made Baby, a villain that was so incredibly broken that the fact Goku was able to beat him at all felt very forced to me.  He was given what I believe to be as good if not greater than Buu's level of regeneration, along with ridiculous possession and mind control capabilities, and in the end Goku's victory honestly felt fake to me, even with SSJ4.  They just didn't deal with Goku's power level well imo.

It's partially why I was surprised Battle of Gods worked so well, and why I like Beerus and Whis so much.  The concept of Gods of Destruction existing to keep the balance of the universe works so well.  So far they appear to be the strongest known DBZ characters (even after the RoF movie), and Goku has still yet to surpass them, which makes me wonder if Goku's not going to reach that level for a long while yet. 

But as for the main question "Is Goku too strong," I unfortunately have to go with a yes on that.  With the way Resurrection of F worked, none of the cast beyond Goku and Vegeta are getting major upgrades anytime soon, which means the chance of them EVER catching up is very bleak.  Goku and Vegeta are good characters, but they're not dependable ones, they can't continually stay interesting over long periods of time.

The best way I can see Super going at this point is to have Vegeta and Goku gone for a long period of time, while the others have to deal with a threat without the assistance of their trump card, which could be a very interesting situation.  Without Goku and Vegeta to call on, what will our heroes do?  However, I REALLY doubt that's the direction they'll take, so I don't know.  Right now, I'm just letting the series run it's course, and will make more concrete judgements as we go further along.




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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2015, 04:39:00 AM »

    Offline Manphu

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The best way I can see Super going at this point is to have Vegeta and Goku gone for a long period of time, while the others have to deal with a threat without the assistance of their trump card, which could be a very interesting situation.  Without Goku and Vegeta to call on, what will our heroes do?  However, I REALLY doubt that's the direction they'll take, so I don't know.  Right now, I'm just letting the series run it's course, and will make more concrete judgements as we go further along.

Exactly. I am happy to see that i am not the only one thinking the same way. If something like this happens , which as we know in RoF Goku and Vegeta DO leave the Earth many times to train with Whis. It can be not only a time for the Z fighters to shine , but a turning point in DBS and generally Dragon Ball as a whole. Maybe the characters won't get a decent boost or maybe the boost they get won't be enough to be noticed but this would be a great plot and great moment.

As far as the power of the gods goes , i would like to actually have them not surpass Beerus's and Whis's power. I mean as far as the rest of the cast in DBS goes they are already "broken" , and i wouldn't like to see another Superman that can't be beaten by literally anyone , i mean common.

Also , Also , not to forget. Actually maybe it has already pointed out but i don't know.

Why Gohan can turn SSJ? I thought that he couldn't do that by the time he achieved Mystic from Kai. Maybe @Nia can enlighten me on this one, because imo if Gohan has the power of Mystic and CAN turn SSJ , doesn't that make him power wise more powerful that SSJ3? . I don't know if this is the right place to ask a question like this , but the whole power thread made me think about it.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 04:43:24 AM by Manphu »

Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2015, 05:19:58 AM »

    Offline Nia

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Exactly. I am happy to see that i am not the only one thinking the same way. If something like this happens , which as we know in RoF Goku and Vegeta DO leave the Earth many times to train with Whis. It can be not only a time for the Z fighters to shine , but a turning point in DBS and generally Dragon Ball as a whole. Maybe the characters won't get a decent boost or maybe the boost they get won't be enough to be noticed but this would be a great plot and great moment.

As far as the power of the gods goes , i would like to actually have them not surpass Beerus's and Whis's power. I mean as far as the rest of the cast in DBS goes they are already "broken" , and i wouldn't like to see another Superman that can't be beaten by literally anyone , i mean common.

Also , Also , not to forget. Actually maybe it has already pointed out but i don't know.

Why Gohan can turn SSJ? I thought that he couldn't do that by the time he achieved Mystic from Kai. Maybe @Nia can enlighten me on this one, because imo if Gohan has the power of Mystic and CAN turn SSJ , doesn't that make him power wise more powerful that SSJ3? . I don't know if this is the right place to ask a question like this , but the whole power thread made me think about it.

I don't know if any official explanation has been given, but to the best of my knowledge, the Mystic form was something that replaced his Super-Saiyajin form. Most likely, due to the Super-Saiyajin God ritual, it rolled him back to the SSJ state, or something. All that was ever explained is that the form is triggered in the same way as transforming into a Super-Saiyajin.
And no, Gohan can't go SSJ and Mystic at the same time. Obviously, had he been able to do that, he would have done so against Buu, but it's pretty clear he was fighting all out and was desperate as he was getting his face kicked in by Gotenks-Buu (Buu even mocks him for trying to suppress his Ki and hide amongst the cliffs...


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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2015, 08:48:49 AM »

    Offline Tomlanji

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We just need Super Cyan 5 to be introduced and we all gud.

Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2015, 07:31:29 AM »

    Offline Kiyza

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isn't that the joke of the series/constant?

I'm not actually sure what you're trying to say here.

The best way I can see Super going at this point is to have Vegeta and Goku gone for a long period of time, while the others have to deal with a threat without the assistance of their trump card, which could be a very interesting situation.  Without Goku and Vegeta to call on, what will our heroes do?  However, I REALLY doubt that's the direction they'll take, so I don't know.  Right now, I'm just letting the series run it's course, and will make more concrete judgements as we go further along.

This actually does seem like a really good idea -- just writing Goku and Vegeta out of the story. Of course, I'm sure that would probably just leave us with having to sort through the power of the characters that are left without them, and we'd get some stragglers anyway, but I feel like more could be done with this concept. Goku did tend to get written out of the series pretty often. Maybe we could have the two of them naughtyword off to a different universe while something threatens the Earth in the current one? Could be neat, and it would give me better expectations for the series.

As far as the power of the gods goes , i would like to actually have them not surpass Beerus's and Whis's power. I mean as far as the rest of the cast in DBS goes they are already "broken" , and i wouldn't like to see another Superman that can't be beaten by literally anyone , i mean common.

I generally take "broken" to mean that a character has abilities that somehow twist the game in their favor. For instance, Boo's regeneration and candy beams are "broken", but Goku doesn't have anything particularly special like that. He mostly just hits things really hard.

And yeah, just because you brought it up and I was thinking about it a bit earlier, I will bring in a bit of Superman stuff for comparison. No, Superman is not invincible. He can, and has, been beaten by a wide swath of opponents. In fact -- and this part is apt to be ignored -- he's not even the strongest character out of the Justice League of America's "Magnificent Seven" (these guys, so we're on the same page). Physically, the honor goes to the Martian Manhunter, who can basically do anything Superman can, but better. It's just not immediately apparent because his animated incarnations usually focus on powers he has that don't overlap with Superman's and don't present him as being in the same ballpark, probably because they're worried about a balance of power. Even if he wasn't horrendously outclassed by a psychic shapeshifter with basically all of his powers, individual members of the League are geared toward different things, and the overall lineup is well-balanced. Superman can't run as fast as the Flash, he's not as skilled as Wonder Woman, he can't make ring constructs like the Green Lanterns, he doesn't have a fraction of the skills Batman does, and even Aquaman has stupidly good telepathy and sometimes has a pinch of magic as well.

Dragon Ball does not have this benefit. Its cast members are basically a team that consists of a bunch of copies of Superman, except some of the Supermen are weaker than the others by a wide margin. Also, there will rarely be more than one villain that needs to be fought, so the "divide and conquer" strategy used by a lot of comic book writers to keep weaker characters in the fray isn't nearly as important. Instead, what Dragon Ball does starting around the Freeza fight is rotate which Superman copy is the strongest at any given point in time. This tends to make a lot of the weaker Supermen useless, so they get swept aside. There's rarely any teamwork in fights, and teamwork hasn't really made a difference since Raditz anyway, which just compounds the issue. If the series were written differently, if teamwork mattered, and the cast had a wider variety of abilities, we probably wouldn't run into this roadblock even if Goku kept being head and shoulders above the rest of the cast, but it's ultimately Dragon Ball's design that make it an issue.

We just need Super Cyan 5 to be introduced and we all gud.

This reminds me. It just hit me while I was typing everything up that we're already beginning to go down a very GT-ish path with Goku and Vegeta getting transformations that the rest of the cast, Super Saiyan or otherwise, probably won't have access to. I keep getting an awful feeling that history will repeat itself.


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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2015, 08:09:11 AM »

    Offline Shyruni

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This actually does seem like a really good idea -- just writing Goku and Vegeta out of the story. Of course, I'm sure that would probably just leave us with having to sort through the power of the characters that are left without them, and we'd get some stragglers anyway, but I feel like more could be done with this concept. Goku did tend to get written out of the series pretty often. Maybe we could have the two of them popo off to a different universe while something threatens the Earth in the current one? Could be neat, and it would give me better expectations for the series.

Not only this, but there's already opportunity for this.  RoF mentions that Vegeta and Goku have trained at Beerus's place for some time before RoF, and it has been shown that communication between there and Earth is complicated at best.  It wouldn't be completely out of the question for something to happen and they're unable to contact either of them.  Another possibility would be like in the DBO timeline, the two disappear, supposedly finishing their dispute once and for all, and are never seen again.  Or they could have both of them die again and actually STAY dead for once.  There's plenty of ways in which this would work.

The obvious possibilities of what this could mean is that Gohan and Piccolo become much stronger, but this would also be a great time for Pan to come in.  Granted it would have to be after RoF when this happens, but it would be an excellent way of bringing her in.  Also it could drive Tenshinhan to reach interesting heights.  An even more interesting idea (at least to me) would be for Krillin's wife Android 18 to become in serious danger, and to see how far he's willing to go for her, being as weak as he is.

But this is all speculation, and honestly I doubt any of these ideas will happen.  Even in the original DBZ Manga, Toriyama clearly has a soft spot in his heart for Goku, so the chances of the focus of the series shifting is unlikely.  More likely than not, we will have another GT (though chances are it will still be better than GT).
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Did Goku Become too Strong?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2015, 02:13:46 PM »

    Offline Tofu

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Not only this, but there's already opportunity for this.  RoF mentions that Vegeta and Goku have trained at Beerus's place for some time before RoF, and it has been shown that communication between there and Earth is complicated at best.  It wouldn't be completely out of the question for something to happen and they're unable to contact either of them.  Another possibility would be like in the DBO timeline, the two disappear, supposedly finishing their dispute once and for all, and are never seen again.  Or they could have both of them die again and actually STAY dead for once.  There's plenty of ways in which this would work.

The obvious possibilities of what this could mean is that Gohan and Piccolo become much stronger, but this would also be a great time for Pan to come in.  Granted it would have to be after RoF when this happens, but it would be an excellent way of bringing her in.  Also it could drive Tenshinhan to reach interesting heights.  An even more interesting idea (at least to me) would be for Krillin's wife Android 18 to become in serious danger, and to see how far he's willing to go for her, being as weak as he is.

But this is all speculation, and honestly I doubt any of these ideas will happen.  Even in the original DBZ Manga, Toriyama clearly has a soft spot in his heart for Goku, so the chances of the focus of the series shifting is unlikely.  More likely than not, we will have another GT (though chances are it will still be better than GT).

I'd love for that to happen. See Goku and Vegeta leave or something and everyone else actually do something. I'd love to see Gohan shine like he was meant to after the Cell saga. The whole show pointed at him becoming the new hero and main character but then fans didn't like it and Goku became the hero again. Also, Gohan isn't really fit to be the hero because that's not what he likes to do but I'd still love to see him stand out and protect the people he cares about.

Of course, there's always Nia around to confirm if this was just a rumor or if it was actually true.
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