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Topic: You didn't say please..!  (Read 3123 times)

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You didn't say please..!
« on: September 04, 2015, 05:58:38 PM »
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This... Is just one of the many things wrong with the funimation dub... It's time that I convey you you, my fellow forum-goers, that the "remastered" funimation dub is just... Abysmal... Now before I go on about my rant, let me at least say that after season 3/4, the show improved dramatically. I can watch the gohan vs cell over and over again for hours... Anyways Allow me to elucidate:

I believe the target audiences of many tv shows today are treated like they have no common sense- Like they have no thought of their own. I once once an avid cartoon lover, owning the sets of many a classic nickelodeon dvds and ect. Nowadays, they promote shows that lack any quality to begin with, shows like Sanjay and Craig that promot toilet humor to the kids of this generation. There was once a time where I went on that channel and didn't see "Fart in a jar" Or whatever crap they now use to promot their shows because they assume kids think its funny. When I was young, toilet humor was shamed, not just by my family but by my fellow classmates as well. We were in second grade, young 7 year olds mind you. Such humor was rarely used, and when it was it was looked down upon. Now regarding dragonball Z, I cannot stand the atrocious Dub that adds so many... inconsistencies...! When watching the dub, the actors have no emotions, they add pointless one liners/jokes/puns that kill the moment and ruin the suspense. One line for example, is during the fight with cell (I couldn't find a clip for it) Where cell charges up, and krillin states, "Well, it looks like cell is back to his old evil self"...Why..? I couldn't even conceive how anyone could come up with that line? he also mentioned, after the clash with gohan and cells FIRST kamehameha (when cell threatens to destroy the planet)," Who would've thought that getting rid of cell would be such... a blast... hehehe". Again, another line so... out of place. It ruins the image the dragonball had represented. Numerous lines such as: You didn't say please (vs frieza) Ride em' cowboy (krillin getting impaled)... It's just so degrading. Now you may think. "Well the target audience are young adolecents/pre teens." Even back than I thought it was out of place. Look, just because the demographic is young doesn't mean they should degrade such an anime. I state this, because this problem persists in todays televison. Dragon Ball Z Kai is, and will remain my favorite form of DBZ. No Awful out of place Bruce falconeer track, the dub is not only consistent with the manga, but it's mature, no darn one liners. Comparison:

Even commercials nowadays prey on the weak minds of individuals, for example the abysmal Credit Karma Commercials I see nowadays, the crud they continues to air on Nickelodeon, etc. Can you really allow our children to watch such... degrading media? Kids aren't fools. They understood full well the difference between spongebob in 2001 and spongebob in 2006. They knew it wasn't funny, or entertaining. Many of my friends had tried to convince me of that, But I dreamt of the return of some quality shows. Television will not see much improvement anytime soon. But there are of course quality cartoons such as Adventure time (kind of. some episodes are just... meh) Steven Universe, Amazing world of gumball(though the newer episodes don't retain the original season's charm), Gravity falls and more.  I just want your opinion/perspectives on this situation, and your opinion on the original funimation Dub for dbz,
The earth is a place where the evil of many can overcome us, But the earth is also a place where all these people can interact and become strong together, me and my friends seek the end the terror of these "time stoppers" Lets put an end to it, It's what goku would've wanted, It's the legacy we've inherited from the saiyans! Go!


You didn't say please..!
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2015, 06:30:00 PM »
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I love that quote he says in the first video. ^^ I am the hope of the Universe. I am the answer to all living things who cry out for peace. I am protector of the innocent. I am the light in the darkness. I am truth... ally to good, nightmare to you. -Goku

You didn't say please..!
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2015, 06:45:07 PM »

    Offline Mikecw.

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Even commercials nowadays prey on the weak minds of individuals, for example the abysmal Credit Karma Commercials I see nowadays, the crud they continues to air on Nickelodeon, etc. Can you really allow our children to watch such... degrading media? Kids aren't fools. They understood full well the difference between spongebob in 2001 and spongebob in 2006. They knew it wasn't funny, or entertaining. Many of my friends had tried to convince me of that, But I dreamt of the return of some quality shows. Television will not see much improvement anytime soon. But there are of course quality cartoons such as Adventure time (kind of. some episodes are just... meh) Steven Universe, Amazing world of gumball(though the newer episodes don't retain the original season's charm), Gravity falls and more.  I just want your opinion/perspectives on this situation, and your opinion on the original funimation Dub for dbz,
>Talking shit about Faulconer
naughtyword off weeb



Also, Adventure Time and Steven Universe are shit.

You didn't say please..!
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2015, 09:37:51 PM »

    Offline Saro

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Just another fanboy who can't admit that,
A. Bruce Faulconer music was much better.
B. Gohan's voice actor is trash now.
C. DBZ Funimation Dub may have been bad but it had its better moments than Kai too.

I know Funimation ain't the best shit, I like Kai....somewhat....but their are always idiots who think everything about funimation was completely crap and Kai is superior, people like that are just bullshitting.

You didn't say please..!
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2015, 11:13:46 PM »

    Offline Roxas

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Just another fanboy who can't admit that,
A. Bruce Faulconer music was much better.
B. Gohan's voice actor is trash now.
C. DBZ Funimation Dub may have been bad but it had its better moments than Kai too.

I know Funimation ain't the best shit, I like Kai....somewhat....but their are always idiots who think everything about funimation was completely crap and Kai is superior, people like that are just bullshitting.

Lol I totally agree 100%
Argument about that the other week lol .
A is debatable .

Didnt your parents tell you not to play with me? Youll get burned.

You didn't say please..!
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2015, 01:06:30 AM »

    Offline Kiyza

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Oh man. A dub Vs dub thread instead of a dub Vs sub thread? Color me surprised!

I believe the target audiences of many tv shows today are treated like they have no common sense- Like they have no thought of their own. I once once an avid cartoon lover, owning the sets of many a classic nickelodeon dvds and ect. Nowadays, they promote shows that lack any quality to begin with, shows like Sanjay and Craig that promot toilet humor to the kids of this generation. There was once a time where I went on that channel and didn't see "Fart in a jar" Or whatever crap they now use to promot their shows because they assume kids think its funny. When I was young, toilet humor was shamed, not just by my family but by my fellow classmates as well. We were in second grade, young 7 year olds mind you. Such humor was rarely used, and when it was it was looked down upon.

Even commercials nowadays prey on the weak minds of individuals, for example the abysmal Credit Karma Commercials I see nowadays, the crud they continues to air on Nickelodeon, etc. Can you really allow our children to watch such... degrading media? Kids aren't fools. They understood full well the difference between spongebob in 2001 and spongebob in 2006. They knew it wasn't funny, or entertaining. Many of my friends had tried to convince me of that, But I dreamt of the return of some quality shows. Television will not see much improvement anytime soon. But there are of course quality cartoons such as Adventure time (kind of. some episodes are just... meh) Steven Universe, Amazing world of gumball(though the newer episodes don't retain the original season's charm), Gravity falls and more.  I just want your opinion/perspectives on this situation, and your opinion on the original funimation Dub for dbz,

I want to give my two cents on this because it's something that really bothers me. I'm someone who watches a lot of American cartoons, and it's a trend I think most people who enjoy them have been noticing too. Networks have taken a strong shift away from sequential series and action cartoons are virtually nonexistent. Disney has kind of hung in there with the Marvel cartoons they have, but no one likes them to begin with -- especially not people who like superhero comics. Networks in general usually make shows that are episodic these days, which cripples attempts to make series with any form of character development or overarching story. Granted, there are still plenty of shows that manage just fine without continuity. I'm very fond of Courage the Cowardly Dog, and that's a series where continuity just plain doesn't exist, but it's also a soft horror/black comedy series. Attempting to make something with a solid plot is much more difficult.

Ratings for most networks relying on cartoons have dropped like a rock. Cartoon Network has seen its ratings recover, but the actual quality of their shows has dipped almost as hard as Nickelodeon's ratings. Fact of the matter is, Nickelodeon gets the best ratings from reruns of Spongebob. The Legend of Korra was the last attempt to make a "serious" cartoon and it had to be pulled from the air because, guess what? It couldn't pull in Spongebob ratings. Funny thing is, though, the target audience for the series -- teenagers -- will often watch their cartoons online anyway. There's an overlap with a lot of anime fans, who are used to streaming services, and many older people rely on Netflix and the like too.

The problem is, good cartoons are actually quite expensive to make. This is part of the reason why Young Justice and Green Lantern: The Animated Series got cancelled and Teen Titans Go! survived. Go! is substantially cheaper to make. There are also a lot of issues with Cartoon Network and DC not playing ball well together since Cartoon Network is technically licensing their property despite them being owned by the same parent company, which is another mess of shit, but it's important to note that this is the same reason why we just haven't seen any story-heavy cartoons. They're usually action-oriented, and action-oriented cartoons cost a lot of dinero. It's cheaper to hire wet-behind-the-ears animators from CalArts than it is to get industry veterans.

That said, I don't think that all hope is lost. We've seen a bit of an upturn lately with cartoons, and while I haven't watched them myself, I've heard good things about Gravity Falls and Wander Over Yonder from people who hate most of the garbage out today. DC also has a long history of making good cartoons based on their comics and they're currently testing the waters with a short web series starring Vixen, set in the CW's live-action universe (the one for The Flash and Arrow, possibly Constantine as well). They also do a lot of direct-to-DVD movies, and I honestly think we'll see a more serious attempt at animation from them when their movies get off the ground next year (and we experience the Great Marvel Vs DC War of 2016).

If all hope is lost, though, at least there's anime to fall back on.

Now regarding dragonball Z, I cannot stand the atrocious Dub that adds so many... inconsistencies...! When watching the dub, the actors have no emotions, they add pointless one liners/jokes/puns that kill the moment and ruin the suspense. One line for example, is during the fight with cell (I couldn't find a clip for it) Where cell charges up, and krillin states, "Well, it looks like cell is back to his old evil self"...Why..? I couldn't even conceive how anyone could come up with that line? he also mentioned, after the clash with gohan and cells FIRST kamehameha (when cell threatens to destroy the planet)," Who would've thought that getting rid of cell would be such... a blast... hehehe". Again, another line so... out of place. It ruins the image the dragonball had represented. Numerous lines such as: You didn't say please (vs frieza) Ride em' cowboy (krillin getting impaled)... It's just so degrading. Now you may think. "Well the target audience are young adolecents/pre teens." Even back than I thought it was out of place. Look, just because the demographic is young doesn't mean they should degrade such an anime. I state this, because this problem persists in todays televison. Dragon Ball Z Kai is, and will remain my favorite form of DBZ. No Awful out of place Bruce falconeer track, the dub is not only consistent with the manga, but it's mature, no darn one liners.

Let's be totally fair here, though. Dragon Ball isn't a mature series on the whole. Its sense of humor is often juvenile. The issue, rather, is the FUNimation dub's sense of humor being different in style from the original. I also don't think it's really that bad in this particular aspect. It's not the type of series that talks down to the audience, and there are some series that do that. If nothing else, it embraces the inherent absurdity of the series and rolls with it. I take more of an issue with the series attempting to be too serious than attempting to be funny, honestly.

>Talking shit about Faulconer
naughtyword off weeb

Liking a different soundtrack doesn't make you a weaboo, and I don't think you know what that term means because you toss it around at anyone who doesn't enjoy the FUNimation dub of Dragon Ball and its many subseries. A lot of people who are normally fine with dubbed anime or might even watch it by default, just don't like it because they think it's a poorly-made dub, which they usually have valid points of criticism to back up anyway.

Just another fanboy who can't admit that,
A. Bruce Faulconer music was much better.

I swear, I'm tired of people acting like this is some objective fact. These are opinions, they're subjective. I'm not afraid to admit that I actually enjoy some of Faulconer's score for the series. My problem with it is that I don't think that the actual music fits the series. Granted, I'm someone who hasn't watched the FUNimation dub outside of spot-checking, so maybe it does fit the dub and I just don't know because I don't even care for it.


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You didn't say please..!
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2015, 01:16:10 AM »

    Offline Luke[Dumke]

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You didn't say please..!
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2015, 02:22:04 AM »

    Offline Nia

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I think it's pretty clear where I stand on the FUNI dub.
And you're absolutely right. It's an insult to the source material.

Honestly, I'm not even all that fond of FUNI Kai, but at least Chris Ayers' performance as Freeza makes up for virtually everything, and usually it's at least trying to be close to the source material, although it does take some liberties at times, an example in particular being Goku going SSJ for the first time has him swear and threaten Freeza in a rather out of character moment, to where his dialogue was actually closer to the source material in the season 3 dub (and frankly, I prefer Kai Gohan's voice, simply because Colleen Clickenbeard isn't trying to make a prebuscent boy sound like like he's "manly" when he's one of the series biggest whiners).

As for the Falcouner soundtrack, there's like maybe 5 whole tracks that are likeable, then the rest is pretty awful, and most of it doesn't fit the mood of the scene.

People can call those of us who hate this dub weaboos all they want. I say the westaboos need to let go of their nostalgia, and get over the simple fact that the FUNI dub had virtually nothing to do with the source material, other than using the same animation.

At least Dragon Ball Z Abridged benefits from it. That "Hope of the Omniverse" speech from TFS Goku is still priceless (as was parodying Piccolo's terrible season 3 speech simply by leaving it word for word until Nail interrupts).


"I am the bone of my sword
 Steel is my body and fire is my blood
 I have created over a thousand blades
 Unknown to Death, Nor known to Life
 Have withstood pain to create many weapons
 Yet, those hands will never hold anything
 So as I pray, Unlimited Blade Works."

You didn't say please..!
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2015, 02:29:10 AM »

    Offline Shyruni

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I'm a bit hesitant to post on here since I technically never saw the original Funimation DUB (#manga4life), but there is something I would like to point out that I don't feel like that's getting covered.

One thing to consider is that American cartoons don't have the rank they used to any more, at least from what I've gathered.  Back when I was growing up, cartoons were the BOMB.  Everyone loved Pokemon, DBZ, and all different kinds of cartoons, good or bad.  It was a popular medium at the time, and this was the childhood I think many of us grew up with. 

But this next generation is a bit different I think.  With the internet now being a popular medium for literally anyone, and even elementary school kids owning things like phones or game consoles, entertainment has never been easier.  Why sit in front of the tv and sit through commercials to watch a cartoon show when you could look up literally anything you want to watch and see it with ease?  I'm just dealing with personal experience, so if you have a different experience feel free to tell me, but I don't feel like I hear kids talking about cartoon shows any more, when they were so massive back in the day.

The other thing to consider is the influence of Japanese cartoons.  Ever since shows like Dragon Ball showed up, the American audience started heavily adoring it.  What I almost always hear is that "anime is more adult", which might be a big reason why.  In my experience, kids will usually want to see something more adult as opposed to something aimed for them, whether or not the adult material is appropriate.  As such, cartoons have been painted as "inferior media", particularly among the high school and young adult nerds of today.

Now, I don't agree with this entirely.  While there aren't as many good cartoons as good anime (I think?), there's some damn good cartoons out there.  Sure, they might have some themes more aimed towards children, but that doesn't mean there's not quality and fun to be had.   I was recently shown Steven Universe and REALLY enjoyed it, and let's not forget the Avatar or Spongebob series.

However, I do think they have lost popularity over the years, which might be partially why it's more risky to put tons of effort into a cartoon these days.  Once again I could be wrong about this, but from my perspective, I don't imagine being a cartoonist is very easy these days. 

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You didn't say please..!
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2015, 03:29:07 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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I'm a bit hesitant to post on here since I technically never saw the original Funimation DUB (#manga4life), but there is something I would like to point out that I don't feel like that's getting covered.

One thing to consider is that American cartoons don't have the rank they used to any more, at least from what I've gathered.  Back when I was growing up, cartoons were the BOMB.  Everyone loved Pokemon, DBZ, and all different kinds of cartoons, good or bad.  It was a popular medium at the time, and this was the childhood I think many of us grew up with. 

But this next generation is a bit different I think.  With the internet now being a popular medium for literally anyone, and even elementary school kids owning things like phones or game consoles, entertainment has never been easier.  Why sit in front of the tv and sit through commercials to watch a cartoon show when you could look up literally anything you want to watch and see it with ease?  I'm just dealing with personal experience, so if you have a different experience feel free to tell me, but I don't feel like I hear kids talking about cartoon shows any more, when they were so massive back in the day.

The other thing to consider is the influence of Japanese cartoons.  Ever since shows like Dragon Ball showed up, the American audience started heavily adoring it.  What I almost always hear is that "anime is more adult", which might be a big reason why.  In my experience, kids will usually want to see something more adult as opposed to something aimed for them, whether or not the adult material is appropriate.  As such, cartoons have been painted as "inferior media", particularly among the high school and young adult nerds of today.

Now, I don't agree with this entirely.  While there aren't as many good cartoons as good anime (I think?), there's some damn good cartoons out there.  Sure, they might have some themes more aimed towards children, but that doesn't mean there's not quality and fun to be had.   I was recently shown Steven Universe and REALLY enjoyed it, and let's not forget the Avatar or Spongebob series.

However, I do think they have lost popularity over the years, which might be partially why it's more risky to put tons of effort into a cartoon these days.  Once again I could be wrong about this, but from my perspective, I don't imagine being a cartoonist is very easy these days.

Well, I didn't see the FUNImation dub either, because I watched Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z in the Latin American dub but I was quite satisfied with it. I'd only seen the Japanese voice acting for Dragon Ball Super and Battle of the Gods (and I am yet to see Revival of Frieza but I plan on watching it in the Latin American dub too). I did watch BoG in Japanese and Latin American and I gotta say the whole feel remains the same as the source material or at least pretty close. As for the FUNImation dub, I got no clue since I only saw it in video games and those seemed pretty good.

Of course, I'm not a good at giving critics when it comes to voice acting or anything but I had to put my two cents there.

About the cartoons, I think there's a big problem in society when people say stuff like "anime are just cartoons and cartoons are for kids". Anime are indeed cartoons, they're just made with a different art style (in most cases) and in a different country. I'm pretty sure the whole point of cartoons was to entertain kids at first, but they got better through the years and adults started liking them.

I, personally, watch anime but not western cartoons. Not because I don't like them but because what I've seen usually has no storyline. Each episode has it's own plot and story and is not connected with the previous one, except for a few events in the past that might be considered in the newest episodes. An example of this is Adventure Time, or at least the few episodes I watched. This whole plot thing is not bad either, I just rather see something where each episode is connected to the next and they all eventually take you to a glorious ending you've been waiting for 20, 30, 60, 100 episodes it might have.
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You didn't say please..!
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2015, 04:19:22 AM »

    Offline Kiyza

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I'm a bit hesitant to post on here since I technically never saw the original Funimation DUB (#manga4life), but there is something I would like to point out that I don't feel like that's getting covered.

One thing to consider is that American cartoons don't have the rank they used to any more, at least from what I've gathered.  Back when I was growing up, cartoons were the BOMB.  Everyone loved Pokemon, DBZ, and all different kinds of cartoons, good or bad.  It was a popular medium at the time, and this was the childhood I think many of us grew up with. 

But this next generation is a bit different I think.  With the internet now being a popular medium for literally anyone, and even elementary school kids owning things like phones or game consoles, entertainment has never been easier.  Why sit in front of the tv and sit through commercials to watch a cartoon show when you could look up literally anything you want to watch and see it with ease?  I'm just dealing with personal experience, so if you have a different experience feel free to tell me, but I don't feel like I hear kids talking about cartoon shows any more, when they were so massive back in the day.

The other thing to consider is the influence of Japanese cartoons.  Ever since shows like Dragon Ball showed up, the American audience started heavily adoring it.  What I almost always hear is that "anime is more adult", which might be a big reason why.  In my experience, kids will usually want to see something more adult as opposed to something aimed for them, whether or not the adult material is appropriate.  As such, cartoons have been painted as "inferior media", particularly among the high school and young adult nerds of today.

Now, I don't agree with this entirely.  While there aren't as many good cartoons as good anime (I think?), there's some damn good cartoons out there.  Sure, they might have some themes more aimed towards children, but that doesn't mean there's not quality and fun to be had.   I was recently shown Steven Universe and REALLY enjoyed it, and let's not forget the Avatar or Spongebob series.

However, I do think they have lost popularity over the years, which might be partially why it's more risky to put tons of effort into a cartoon these days.  Once again I could be wrong about this, but from my perspective, I don't imagine being a cartoonist is very easy these days.

I feel like you definitely have a point in saying that children these days aren't as big into cartoons since they have their phones and tablets and such. Television on the whole is beginning to be subsumed by other forms of media, generally because they're more readily accessible. For the most part, when the TV is on in my household, it's because it makes good background noise, not because there's something on that someone has a vested interest in watching.

When I used to watch cartoons in my late teens, I'd usually watch them after the episode had aired On Demand, so that I could pause it when I needed a break, if someone called me, or whatever. TV having a schedule to it makes it substantially less convenient. These days, I've mostly been streaming cartoons and anime, though either I or my girlfriend actually own DVD sets for a few anime series. I honestly think that the best solution is to start having services like Hulu take over, and allow people to basically watch shows online like they do on TV: with short commercial interruptions, so that the people who make it can turn a decent profit.

Another important point to make is that children generally have a very juvenile understanding of what something "adult" is. They focus more on the aesthetics than the actual subject matter. If you ask me, what makes something "adult" is more a matter of whether or not the core idea or theme is something that will resonate more with an older audience. Genuinely mature things probably wouldn't interest them, or they'd be lost on the details.

In my own experience, I actually haven't seen teens and young adults (barring otaku who believe that anime is inherently superior and all western animation is trash) making the claim that American cartoons are all garbage. Here on this forum alone, which I believe is largely made up of people around 15-22 or so, I've heard quite a few good things about western cartoons from the people on the forum, you and @ethanvolcano21 included. I've sat down to watch western cartoons with other forum members too. Not all people are the type who just fondly remember the ones from when they were a child either, considering we're seeing series that are currently airing being brought up in this thread, so there's no nostalgia filter acting as a bias.

For the record, being a cartoonist these days is a bit harder if you want creative control over your work in particular. There's less freedom on the series creator's end, so it's not like things were in the early days of Cartoon Network, where a lot of things were heavily controlled by the people who originally came up with the concept. There's still a lot of independent animation made on the web, but most of it goes effectively unnoticed too.

About the cartoons, I think there's a big problem in society when people say stuff like "anime are just cartoons and cartoons are for kids". Anime are indeed cartoons, they're just made with a different art style (in most cases) and in a different country. I'm pretty sure the whole point of cartoons was to entertain kids at first, but they got better through the years and adults started liking them.

I, personally, watch anime but not western cartoons. Not because I don't like them but because what I've seen usually has no storyline. Each episode has it's own plot and story and is not connected with the previous one, except for a few events in the past that might be considered in the newest episodes. An example of this is Adventure Time, or at least the few episodes I watched. This whole plot thing is not bad either, I just rather see something where each episode is connected to the next and they all eventually take you to a glorious ending you've been waiting for 20, 30, 60, 100 episodes it might have.

I don't think the notion that anime is just for kids is something that's taken root in our generation, though it's probably there for older folks who assume that animation, by default, is a children's medium, barring perhaps the animated sitcoms I mentioned earlier. While we're on the subject of target audiences, I should mention that we still have a lot of adults in the west who enjoy animation, it's just that it's not as accepted over here because a lot of cartoons are made for children.

I mentioned this before, but most cartoons these days are designed to be episodic rather than sequential, with minimal emphasis on overarching storylines. That's because the powers that be have decided that children simply don't have the attention spans to watch cartoons with overarching stories, even though it's easier to do that now than it ever has been, since you can easily Google the order you're supposed to watch the series in and watch it On Demand to catch up.

Generally, I tend to gravitate toward shows with overarching narratives, though I've also watched some that weren't heavily interconnected and still turned out just fine. A good chunk of the DCAU is episodic rather than sequential, but many people still herald Batman: The Animated Series as one of the finest western cartoons of era. Avatar: The Last Airbender is a good example of a western cartoon that's both damn good and difficult to watch if you ever tried sequence-breaking, though I'd be genuinely surprised if you haven't tried it. Transformers Prime has probably gone unnoticed by people who don't like the franchise, but it's another series with a lot of emphasis on continuity, and you'll probably be completely lost after a certain point if you decide to watch it out of order. A few comic adaptations have also been good with having overarching plots, like Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, though it's not to the degree that the other two series are and most episodes can be watched without any prior information.


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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2015, 04:47:00 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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I don't think the notion that anime is just for kids is something that's taken root in our generation, though it's probably there for older folks who assume that animation, by default, is a children's medium, barring perhaps the animated sitcoms I mentioned earlier. While we're on the subject of target audiences, I should mention that we still have a lot of adults in the west who enjoy animation, it's just that it's not as accepted over here because a lot of cartoons are made for children.

I mentioned this before, but most cartoons these days are designed to be episodic rather than sequential, with minimal emphasis on overarching storylines. That's because the powers that be have decided that children simply don't have the attention spans to watch cartoons with overarching stories, even though it's easier to do that now than it ever has been, since you can easily Google the order you're supposed to watch the series in and watch it On Demand to catch up.

Generally, I tend to gravitate toward shows with overarching narratives, though I've also watched some that weren't heavily interconnected and still turned out just fine. A good chunk of the DCAU is episodic rather than sequential, but many people still herald Batman: The Animated Series as one of the finest western cartoons of era. Avatar: The Last Airbender is a good example of a western cartoon that's both damn good and difficult to watch if you ever tried sequence-breaking, though I'd be genuinely surprised if you haven't tried it. Transformers Prime has probably gone unnoticed by people who don't like the franchise, but it's another series with a lot of emphasis on continuity, and you'll probably be completely lost after a certain point if you decide to watch it out of order. A few comic adaptations have also been good with having overarching plots, like Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, though it's not to the degree that the other two series are and most episodes can be watched without any prior information.

This basically what I was too lazy to say. I still respect episodic cartoons and I can still consider them good, I just don't like to have the whole plot take place in a single episode, since my attention span is obviously good enough to watch an overarching story but I do understand episodic ones are obviously better for kids and I understand why cartoons are like that now-a-days.

My 8 year-old cousin recently started watching DBZ Kai (and I didn't even told her to). She's having a hard time understanding because freaking Cartoon Network keeps going back and forth in the Frieza saga. One day, Goku goes Super Saiyan, the next he's still traveling to Namek, then healing after the Ginyu fight and so on, jumping around the storyline but always staying at the same saga.
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2015, 06:01:52 AM »

    Offline Mikecw.

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Liking a different soundtrack doesn't make you a weaboo, and I don't think you know what that term means because you toss it around at anyone who doesn't enjoy the FUNimation dub of Dragon Ball and its many subseries. A lot of people who are normally fine with dubbed anime or might even watch it by default, just don't like it because they think it's a poorly-made dub, which they usually have valid points of criticism to back up anyway.
There is nothing wrong with the Bruce Faulconer soundtrack.

>hur dur funi dub made dbz too serious
If you think that, you're an idiot, there's an obvious tone change from DB into DBZ. The matters they deal with are more serious now, like protecting the earth.

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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2015, 06:33:42 AM »

    Offline Nia

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There is nothing wrong with the Bruce Faulconer soundtrack.

Unless you want more than a handful of passable songs. Most of it is repetitious synth buttrock a person could "compose" by slamming their head on a keyboard.


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 So as I pray, Unlimited Blade Works."

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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2015, 04:11:18 PM »
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       Alrighty than, I've received some great/detailed replies, and I'd just like to clarify my viewpoint a bit more. First; I cannot stand the notion that kids don't have the "attention" span to watch television shows with continuity. Kids, and let me emphasize this because this was the point I was trying to make, Are not imbeciles. When my group of friends in 1st grade saw Avatar the Last Airbender, We knew what to expect. We knew that there was going to be an epic journey that may end when We're much much older. From that very first episode, me and my friends started theorizing what could happen, who the fire lord was, was Zuko going to die, etc. We were 7. And yes, though we didn't have what I guess could be considered the mentality to see the more mature and adult content, we didn't watch it because it was flashy-ohhh-space-fire-lazers. We watched it because it was a journey- we knew what tragedies could take place, we expected the show to take a much darker tone. Let me remind you once more, We were merely seven years of age.

       Kids have the capability and the mentality to understand the overall theme of things. Pokemon was another major part of my childhood- Life. I;m still an avid pokemon fan, and just recently I started completing the pokedex. But anyways, It bothers me when kids are treated like stereotypical kids; If you treat a kid like an imbecile, than they will be slow to learn, and their understanding of concepts will suffer. My friend's brother just turned 7. He's played through and completed within a few play-throughs, the five nights at freddys trilogy. Expect to see him on youtube very soon. When He was 5, he beat me at Halo reach..! And if you dare think even for a second that he's gifted, that's not necessarily the case; His brother, 13 at the time, taught him how to play halo. He wanted his brother to experience the world of gaming, awesome sic-fi shows like doctor who/Fireflies.

       He was treated like someone my brothers age. And the result? He understands the maturity and the higher concepts/themes of this type of media. When placed in front of Avatar the Last airbender, He loves it. When Placed in front of Teen Titans Go, He quite literally said that it was the worst thing ever. Why..? Because He's seen The higher more mature themes of DC/Marvel. He reads the comics etc. The point is that; He was a child who was treated like an adolescent. Kids are not stupid; they can lear. KIDS ARE NOT STUPID. THEY CAN LEARN. The stereotype that kids cannot understand higher themes stems from the fact that we never show them/convey to them what these themes are, and they don't learn until society deems them worthy of teaching. You can teach a toddler algebra if you put the time into it. I cannot stand to see this stereotype go on any farther, Kids are intelligent. But they are ignorant, it is up to us to teach them. Now onto the Dragonball discussion-

1: the point I wanted to convey, but chose not to, is that the voices are emotionless. Goku sounds the same in each episode. His voice is this monotone, droid voice that rarely shows emotion. In kai, this is changed dramatically; Each expression he gives is conveyed passion..! Every line has me shaking, from his first encounter with Vegeta, to his final battle with frieze. Now later on in the animation dub, this changes as the actors get used to doing their jobs. As I said, The buu saga in funimation is better than the Kai rendition. It was perfect IMO.

2: To those who complain about gohan's annoying voice, I just don't understand. You realize that when he fought cell he was literally nine years old right..? In the US version, he was 11, so that may cause confusion for some… I guess… But anyways, Im tired of so called "Squeekers" being hated for the pitch of their voice. I was a squeakier up until last year, when I was 15. I was constantly faced with pointless derision, and hatred. Such a flawed point of view could not be taken seriously. Kai, being my first dub, the voice of gohan made sense. He was 4 years old, not a kid who's throat sounds like it was torn out. He's a young male, who's voice matches his perfectly. If anything, I don't think that voice fits for Luffy in the funimation dub, but that's a story for another day. I don't see the correlation between a young adolescents voice, and their maturity. But anyways, in relation to Gohan: His voice isn't annoying, its literally a perfect fit.

3: The reason I don't like the Bruce Falconeer dub is because I feel that for the most part, the music doesn't fit AT ALL. I cannot deny that there are some amazing soundtracks in there, but I feel as though it makes the show feel more American-ized. I heard a youtube commenter saying that DBZ sounded like a Space-opera in the original japanese dub. Thats what DBZ is. It's a space opera. It's supposed to be dramatic and suspenseful. It's not this super hero show; ,"OH LOOK GOKUS HERE, WERE SAVED" No. Goku is just the strongest of the group because of his training. He's not un-stoppable, and this has been shown on a multitude of occasions. And I realize that this view may stem from the fact that I had no idea what bruce falconer music was until about three years ago, seeing as I had always watched DBZ with the original soundtrack, but please have some respect for others opinions. There's no need to incite rage and actively provoke others who don't agree with you. Unless you have a valid argument/point, Im not going to respond to anyone who's only here to insult the opinions of others or my own.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 04:32:05 PM by ethanvolcano21 »
The earth is a place where the evil of many can overcome us, But the earth is also a place where all these people can interact and become strong together, me and my friends seek the end the terror of these "time stoppers" Lets put an end to it, It's what goku would've wanted, It's the legacy we've inherited from the saiyans! Go!


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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2015, 04:13:33 PM »

    Offline Mikecw.

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Alrighty than, I've received some great/detailed replies, and I'd just like to clarify my viewpoint a bit more. First; I cannot stand the notion that kids don't have the "attention" span to watch television shows with continuity. Kids, and let me emphasize this because this was the point I was trying to make, Are not imbeciles. When my group of friends in 1st grade saw Avatar the Last Airbender, We knew what to expect. We knew that there was going to be an epic journey that may end when We're much much older. From that very first episode, me and my friends started theorizing what could happen, who the fire lord was, was Zuko going to die, etc. We were 7. And yes, though we didn't have what I guess could be considered the mentality to see the more mature and adult content, we didn't watch it because it was flashy-ohhh-space-fire-lazers. We watched it because it was a journey- we knew what tragedies could take place, we expected the show to take a much darker tone. Let me remind you once more, We were merely seven years of age. Kids have the capability and the mentality to understand the overall theme of things. Pokemon was another major part of my childhood- Life. I;m still an avid pokemon fan, and just recently I started completing the pokedex. But anyways, It bothers me when kids are treated like stereotypical kids; If you treat a kid like an imbecile, than they will be slow to learn, and their understanding of concepts will suffer. My friend's brother just turned 7. He's played through and completed within a few play-throughs, the five nights at freddys trilogy. Expect to see him on youtube very soon. When He was 5, he beat me at Halo reach..! And if you dare think even for a second that he's gifted, that's not necessarily the case; His brother, 13 at the time, taught him how to play halo. He wanted his brother to experience the world of gaming, awesome sic-fi shows like doctor who/Fireflies. He was treated like someone my brothers age. And the result? He understands the maturity and the higher concepts/themes of this type of media. When placed in front of Avatar the Last airbender, He loves it. When Placed in front of Teen Titans Go, He quite literally said that it was the worst thing ever. Why..? Because He's seen The higher more mature themes of DC/Marvel. He reads the comics etc. The point is that; He was a child who was treated like an adolescent. Kids are not stupid; they can lear. KIDS ARE NOT STUPID. THEY CAN LEARN. The stereotype that kids cannot understand higher themes stems from the fact that we never show them/convey to them what these themes are, and they don't learn until society deems them worthy of teaching. You can teach a toddler algebra if you put the time into it. I cannot stand to see this stereotype go on any farther, Kids are intelligent. But they are ignorant, it is up to us to teach them. Now onto the Dragonball discussion-

1: the point I wanted to convey, but chose not to, is that the voices are emotionless. Goku sounds the same in each episode. His voice is this monotone, droid voice that rarely shows emotion. In kai, this is changed dramatically; Each expression he gives is conveyed passion..! Every line has me shaking, from his first encounter with Vegeta, to his final battle with frieze. Now later on in the animation dub, this changes as the actors get used to doing their jobs. As I said, The buu saga in funimation is better than the Kai rendition. It was perfect IMO.

2: To those who complain about gohan's annoying voice, I just don't understand. You realize that when he fought cell he was literally nine years old right..? In the US version, he was 11, so that may cause confusion for some… I guess… But anyways, Im tired of so called "Squeekers" being hated for the pitch of their voice. I was a squeakier up until last year, when I was 15. I was constantly faced with pointless derision, and hatred. Such a flawed point of view could not be taken seriously. Kai, being my first dub, the voice of gohan made sense. He was 4 years old, not a kid who's throat sounds like it was torn out. He's a young male, who's voice matches his perfectly. If anything, I don't think that voice fits for Luffy in the funimation dub, but that's a story for another day. I don't see the correlation between a young adolescents voice, and their maturity. But anyways, in relation to Gohan: His voice isn't annoying, its literally a perfect fit.

3: The reason I don't like the Bruce Falconeer dub is because I feel that for the most part, the music doesn't fit AT ALL. I cannot deny that there are some amazing soundtracks in there, but I feel as though it makes the show feel more American-ized. I heard a youtube commenter saying that DBZ sounded like a Space-opera in the original japanese dub. Thats what DBZ is. It's a space opera. It's supposed to be dramatic and suspenseful. It's not this super hero show; ,"OH LOOK GOKUS HERE, WERE SAVED" No. Goku is just the strongest of the group because of his training. He's not un-stoppable, and this has been shown on a multitude of occasions. And I realize that this view may stem from the fact that I had no idea what bruce falconer music was until about three years ago, seeing as I had always watched DBZ with the original soundtrack, but please have some respect for others opinions. There's no need to incite rage and actively provoke others who don't agree with you. Unless you have a valid argument/point, Im not going to respond to anyone who's only here to insult the opinions of others or my own.
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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2015, 02:44:26 AM »

    Offline Kiyza

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Kids have the capability and the mentality to understand the overall theme of things.

This I get, but here's the thing. I don't think that they have the mental capacity to appreciate certain themes until they're older. There were a lot of comics I read in my mid to late teens that I'm happy I never looked into when I was younger because it wouldn't have had the same impact on a younger version of myself. Basic symbolism and themes are taught to kids in things like My Little Pony, but here's the thing. The capacity to actually understand abstract concepts isn't something that comes into play much later in life, which I'll get to in a moment.

Pokemon was another major part of my childhood- Life. I;m still an avid pokemon fan, and just recently I started completing the pokedex.

Completely unrelated, but I can help you out if you want since mine's already complete.

He was treated like someone my brothers age. And the result? He understands the maturity and the higher concepts/themes of this type of media. When placed in front of Avatar the Last airbender, He loves it. When Placed in front of Teen Titans Go, He quite literally said that it was the worst thing ever. Why..? Because He's seen The higher more mature themes of DC/Marvel. He reads the comics etc.

Yeah, gonna step in here and say that a lot of comics published by Marvel and DC are pretty juvenile to begin with. Not everything is like that, but a good chunk has a serious lack of substance. From what I've seen of both, Teen Titans Go! may be less "mature" than the current Teen Titans run (Superboy is being blamed for killing someone and his teammates an other superheroes are ganging up on him or something like that, but I'm not reading it, so take my statements with a fistful of salt), but I wouldn't put it on a pedestal when books like Harley Quinn's -- a lighthearted comedy series -- are topping sales charts.

That said, there are definitely a lot of things that are going to go straight over kids' heads simply because they don't have the life experience and might just take something at face value. The other night, I read the eight page one-shot leading into the current Martian Manhunter ongoing. In it, J'onn J'onzz, our titular protagonist, goes to the moon to check on a space mission Earth has lost contact with, and the second he touches down on the moon, he starts thinking about Mars and has a flashback to it that almost seems real to him and makes him want to cry out because of the painful emotions he's experiencing since everyone he knew and loved is dead now. He passes this off as him being from Mars and that being totally normal, but it's easy for the trained eye to tell that he's being an unreliable narrator because those are the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, something he's had a problem with for quite a while.

Would a child actually catch onto that? Because when I was five or seven, I know for a fact that I didn't even know what depression was, let alone PTSD. Even if a child can learn that, though, can they actually sympathize with it? Not even empathize and feel like they've been in that spot, because most people simply haven't, but feel a lot of compassion for the character in question. It's a tried and true fact that children simply have difficulty understanding others' thoughts and emotions and seeing things from other perspectives. It's part of the reason why kids tend to be so selfish.

The point is that; He was a child who was treated like an adolescent. Kids are not stupid; they can lear. KIDS ARE NOT STUPID. THEY CAN LEARN. The stereotype that kids cannot understand higher themes stems from the fact that we never show them/convey to them what these themes are, and they don't learn until society deems them worthy of teaching. You can teach a toddler algebra if you put the time into it. I cannot stand to see this stereotype go on any farther, Kids are intelligent. But they are ignorant, it is up to us to teach them.

No, a child actually can't learn algebra. Not until they're around 11-12 years old. Not the full extent of it anyway, because it requires an understanding of certain abstract concepts. The human brain doesn't develop to the point where that's possible until it's pre-teen, not a gradeschooler. This is something that extensive research has been done on, along with the notion above that children have difficulty empathizing and sympathizing.

Now, I'm not saying that kids are as stupid as adults believe they are. I think most adults take the intelligence of children for granted and there's almost an effort made to dumb them down in some cases. What I'm saying is that there's a specific, repeated pattern that the human brain develops in and it's actually a mental impossibility for humans of a certain age to do certain things. In the same way that an infant can't use fine motor skills, it's difficult, if not impossible, for children to understand certain things. Their brains do not work like miniature adult ones, they're actually "wired" differently.

1: the point I wanted to convey, but chose not to, is that the voices are emotionless. Goku sounds the same in each episode. His voice is this monotone, droid voice that rarely shows emotion. In kai, this is changed dramatically; Each expression he gives is conveyed passion..! Every line has me shaking, from his first encounter with Vegeta, to his final battle with frieze. Now later on in the animation dub, this changes as the actors get used to doing their jobs. As I said, The buu saga in funimation is better than the Kai rendition. It was perfect IMO.

This is something I really have to point out because a lot of people who are anti-dub don't realize it. By the time the Boo arc rolled around for the original FUNimation dub, at least a good chunk of the voice acting was solid because the actors had years more experience than they did when it was just starting out. There are a few really solid performances earlier on (Dameon Clarke is an excellent Cell), I really feel that's the point in the series where most of the cast was pretty comfortable with their roles. The redubbed "season 1" and "season 2" are also pretty good from what little I've seen because the voice actors went back and voiced over those lines because that part of the series was originally done by the Ocean cast. By the time they did it, they'd already become much more competent at their roles.


3: The reason I don't like the Bruce Falconeer dub is because I feel that for the most part, the music doesn't fit AT ALL. I cannot deny that there are some amazing soundtracks in there, but I feel as though it makes the show feel more American-ized. I heard a youtube commenter saying that DBZ sounded like a Space-opera in the original japanese dub. Thats what DBZ is. It's a space opera. It's supposed to be dramatic and suspenseful. It's not this super hero show; ,"OH LOOK GOKUS HERE, WERE SAVED" No. Goku is just the strongest of the group because of his training. He's not un-stoppable, and this has been shown on a multitude of occasions. And I realize that this view may stem from the fact that I had no idea what bruce falconer music was until about three years ago, seeing as I had always watched DBZ with the original soundtrack, but please have some respect for others opinions. There's no need to incite rage and actively provoke others who don't agree with you. Unless you have a valid argument/point, Im not going to respond to anyone who's only here to insult the opinions of others or my own.

Dragon Ball isn't a space opera, though. It's science-fantasy (though also action-comedy). Space opera usually implies that you're taking the narrative elements of high fantasy and putting it into a soft science-fiction setting, but Dragon Ball is a series with fantasy elements side-by-side with science fiction ones. It's not shy about saying that certain things, like the Dragon Balls, are literally magic, and those exist in tandem with aliens. There are aliens that use magic in the series for Dende's sake. There's a bit of a question about where to draw the line. Is Star Wars science fantasy because it uses a magic stand-in like the Force? It's somewhat up for interpretation depending on the series, but I think that saying the series is a space opera is a huge stretch, especially when only one story arc is even set in space, which is generally a prerequisite.

For what it's worth, the FUNimation dub's "superhero" style is probably influenced by the fact that there are superficial similarities between Goku and Superman. They're both flying bricks who were sent to the planet Earth as a baby and grew up to protect it. They're also cultural icons for Japan and America respectively. That's about where the similarities end, and while anyone who knows either characters knows that there's a huge difference between fighting for fun and fighting for *ahem* Truth, Justice, and the American Way.


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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2015, 02:39:51 PM »
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Excellent reply… I might've gone off on a bit of a tangent when I said that algebra thing, but I still believe that Kids can learn at a much faster pace, This is coming from a student who went to a private school for grades 1-4, in which the average student was 1-2 grades above public education. In 3rd grade, one of my peers was doing 6th grade level work.

Regarding the Marvel/DC Thing, I'm not really a fan of it… So I wouldn't know. I made that comparison between the original teen titans and TTG to demonstrate that kids can see certain mature aspects. You made good points about how kids do tend to take things at face value, for the most part I cannot argue with that. But In relation to sympathy/empathy… Well, I don't know how to respond to that. I mean, there are certain factors that take place in that, such as the environment in which the kids was raised in, how other kids treat him, how adults trade him, etc. I was empathetic towards my friends, and I wanted to protect them in any way I could. I had few "enemies", for the most part, it was just me getting into some sort of argument, than later apologizing for it. I was an empathetic kids if I were to say so, but there are certain factors that are the reason for that as well.

From what I can see, Empathy is a rare trait among the masses; There comes a time in most adolescent lives, from what I've seen, where they believe that empathy and showing kindness towards others is… Petulant/childish. As a student who just entered his Junior year, needless profanity and other apathetic behaviors still take place on a daily basis.
The earth is a place where the evil of many can overcome us, But the earth is also a place where all these people can interact and become strong together, me and my friends seek the end the terror of these "time stoppers" Lets put an end to it, It's what goku would've wanted, It's the legacy we've inherited from the saiyans! Go!


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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2015, 12:55:05 PM »

    Offline Kiyza

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Excellent reply… I might've gone off on a bit of a tangent when I said that algebra thing, but I still believe that Kids can learn at a much faster pace, This is coming from a student who went to a private school for grades 1-4, in which the average student was 1-2 grades above public education. In 3rd grade, one of my peers was doing 6th grade level work.

I won't deny that the public education system stifles kids' abilities to learn. That's because it standardizes their education and makes them all learn at the same pace as their peers, despite the fact that some children are just better than others at certain things. However, you can still end up with issues by not standardizing things, because, as I noted, there's a very linear path of brain development, and understanding of certain abstract concepts begins to appear within the same year or so. While your friend in the 3rd grade could handle 6th grade work, he probably would have struggled with the work given to 7th and 8th graders next year simply because his prefrontal cortex hadn't developed to the point where the mathematics would have been able to click. There's also an issue with children of different age groups picking on and ostracizing their peers when together, though I'll admit that children will attempt to pick on their peers for almost anything, especially in grade school and middle school.

Regarding the Marvel/DC Thing, I'm not really a fan of it… So I wouldn't know. I made that comparison between the original teen titans and TTG to demonstrate that kids can see certain mature aspects.

Nothin' wrong with that, and it's always good to see the younguns readin' the funnybooks.


You made good points about how kids do tend to take things at face value, for the most part I cannot argue with that. But In relation to sympathy/empathy… Well, I don't know how to respond to that. I mean, there are certain factors that take place in that, such as the environment in which the kids was raised in, how other kids treat him, how adults trade him, etc. I was empathetic towards my friends, and I wanted to protect them in any way I could. I had few "enemies", for the most part, it was just me getting into some sort of argument, than later apologizing for it. I was an empathetic kids if I were to say so, but there are certain factors that are the reason for that as well.

From what I can see, Empathy is a rare trait among the masses; There comes a time in most adolescent lives, from what I've seen, where they believe that empathy and showing kindness towards others is… Petulant/childish. As a student who just entered his Junior year, needless profanity and other apathetic behaviors still take place on a daily basis.

Let me try to iron this out, just so we're on the same page. Sympathy and empathy are two different concepts. Sympathy is the ability to feel pity for someone and their plights. Empathy is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes. It's mostly the latter that children lack because they're often egocentric (not egotistical, egocentric) at a young age. The ability to see something from someone else's perspective is something that develops over time. This is why children will give their parents birthday cards with things they enjoy on them instead of things their parents enjoy. It's also why a lot of insecure people believe that everyone is looking at them and they have to behave perfectly when the reality is that most people don't care. This sort of behavior will actually persist into the early teens according to a few studies, though it's obviously diminished in older individuals.

What I'm getting at is that children have a limited capacity to really put themselves into another character's shoes and enjoy a work of fiction from that perspective. They can understand the notion of something being an epic, long-lasting journey, yes, but that says nothing about the character-driven side of the series, just the story.


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You didn't say please..!
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2015, 12:29:22 AM »

    Offline SkyHero20

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so you want kid to experience being a specific anime character and what they go through?
i see

expect the unexpected

You didn't say please..!
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2015, 09:48:48 AM »

    Offline Kiyza

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so you want kid to experience being a specific anime character and what they go through?
i see

That's not quite what I'm getting at. I'm saying that certain things are more enjoyable when you can put yourself in another character's shoes, and not just a single character either. Younger people have a more limited capacity to do this, and I feel that it would affect their enjoyment of some works of fiction. For instance, I mentioned this scene in my second to last post. This page combined with one other I found posted up online actually made me check out the comic in question because they played my heartstrings like a guitar. I don't think that most children would be that enraptured by it, though, because to really feel the impact, it takes an understanding of the character's pain, and it's more difficult for younger audiences to do so.

I realize now that this is rather off-topic. The point I'm trying to make is that children -- especially those that are below around the middle school age range -- have a more limited capacity to enjoy works of fiction for certain qualities.


3DS Friend Code: 2750-1102-6000
Off season for VGC Pokémon due to hating the current meta and competitive format, but will still do doubles; Ganondorf main in Smash 4 Wii U and 3DS; G1 Rank Sword & Shield in MH4U