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Topic: Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation  (Read 2827 times)

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This is already a large topic in DBOG but nonetheless I would like to post my thoughts on the old DBO Upgrade and Dogi System, or more specifically the break system. As you know, when upgrading your gear or adding effects to dogi items there is a chance that item will break and be lost. Honestly, this system needs to change and the break chance needs to be removed. Let me explain.

With gear (weapons and armor) you reach a point where upgrading becomes a game a chance. I'm sure a lot of you are going to say "oh but removing break will make it too easy" and "we have white stones for a reason." Both of those arguments are completely BS. Why? Because all and all we are at the mercy of the game's RNG system. For those who don't know, RNG stands for "Random Number Generator" and is quite common in games, especially MMOs. This system determines a number of factors such as what item drops, how much damage your skill does, your crit chance, etc. Even the upgrade and dogi system run under the RNG system. As such, the RNG system makes the current upgrade system a living hell.

What people don't take into account when debating about the upgrade and dogi system is all the factors that take place in the entire process. The first factor is getting the gear/dogi you want to modify which, unless it is coded to be a sure way of getting, will be completely random. You may be like "oh that's what farming is for newb," and you're right. However, people don't take into account the actual chances of getting what you want. In the RNG system, there are a set of numbers/code called "seeds" that are designated to each item with a different effect. When a mob is defeated the RNG will randomly select a set of seeds to act as how many drops there will be total as well as what kinds of drops will appear. Because of the sheer amount of items that have different values, rarity, levels, and effects the chances of getting rare items to appear is very, very slim. Now one way to improve this is by assigning more seeds to a specific item with a specific rarity and effect set. This increases the chance of the RNG selecting that seed and therefore generating that specific item. This is generally how low rank numbers/zeni are made. However, even increasing the number of seeds for a specific item doesn't improve the chances of it appearing by a lot. A common solution to keeping the break system is adding white stones as drops with a low chance of appearing as well as increasing the chances of upgrade stones appearing. Easy no? Well no it isn't. Adding items as drops only makes things worse because that increases the amount of seeds in the game's code, which means a larger list for the RNG system to work with and a lower chance of it hitting that specific seed.

Anyway, back to the main point. Because of how the RNG system works, you're going to be relying heavily on luck just to get that item you want to upgrade. You could get it in an hour, or you will get it in seven days of constant farming. It doesn't matter how many seeds are assigned to an item, because the sheer number of items, values, and such means that there is a incredibly large list of seeds for the RNG to work with. The only sure way to make sure you get the item you desire is to code the mob to specifically select that seed to insure that item will drop. This is generally how TMQs and UDs are set up, but even then it's not a sure thing because of the amount of values, types, and effects an item can have. And that's only the first factor you have to consider when thinking about the upgrade system.

The next factor is the upgrading process itself. Let's say you got your desired gear and are stocked on the upgrade stones you collected, and you decide to give upgrading a try. Now as we know there are is a set level in upgrades where you're guarantied to get a "Success" (+3 for armor and +6 for weapons). Once you reach that number, the upgrading game will switch over to three cards where you have to choose one in order to get either a Success, Fail, or Break. This is where the RNG system kicks in, because it generates the code that decides which card is positioned on the left, right, and center. As such, there is no way to tell which card is which turning the mini-game into a game of chance. This is where the annoyance the of upgrading comes in because this makes the entire process rely solely on luck, and you have to do this all the way up to +15 for each piece of equipment. As it is now, the odds are tremendously against the player and having the chance of the item breaking makes things ten times worse. Even using white stones doesn't increase your chances, because while you save your gear from being destroyed you still end up wasting an upgrade stone and, in the chance of hitting Success, a white stone. The worst part is that there is no way to increase the chances of hitting Success because its position is a set factor. As such, the best the devs can do is make it "tolerable."

So how can we make the system tolerable? Well for starters get rid of the break chance. Because of all the factors determined by the RNG system, the player is put at a huge disadvantage so getting rid of the break chance won't make things as easy as people think. If anything, it just makes upgrading less of a pain. Now in the place of the break system we can either...

a) make it to where hitting "Broken" results in downgrading the item by a random number
b) make it to where hitting "Broken" results in the gear's condition rate decreasing by a random amount to where if it hits 0 it needs to be repaired before attempting further upgrading.

Regardless of either choice white stones can still be used to negate the punishing effect and make it a simple "Fail," because again you won't lose/damage your gear but you still waste an upgrade stone. These are my thoughts anyway.

As for the dogi system, I believe that it is also too luck based to have a chance of the item being destroyed. Not only that, but unlike armor and weapons you can't farm for dogis or dogi effect balls and either get them as special rewards (like from Budokai for example) or through events/donations. As such, having a break chance on dogis makes the player think the process is too risky and should be avoided. This is especially true for some of the rarest dogis that can appear as a one time only deal or are ridiculously hard to get (like the C17/cowboy WP dogi in old DBO). Removing the break chance for dogis will make things less stressful but not too easy because the effects and their values will still be determined by the RNG system and you can end up wasting 10 dogi balls and still not get what you want.

Anyway, sorry for the large post. I just felt that I needed to explain some things before people start going on saying "this makes it too easy" and such.

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2015, 07:38:21 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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Where's the potato for the long post? 9gag reference, anyone?

Anyway, I can't really gove an opinion here since I didn't upgrade my gear more than twice ever in the game. Actually, I just learned that success rate was 100% till +4 on armors and +6 on weapons. Also, I'm quite sure you couldn't upgrade the Dogi's or add them effects before I quit the game.
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Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2015, 08:09:36 AM »

    Offline Jaryan

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I like your in-site and definitely hear were your coming from, I wouldn't mind if they did take away gear breaking, I feel as tho taking away the breaking still wouldn't help you get to +15 any faster. Or another option they can have is make White Stones more easier to get...

To be honest I really don't care if they take it away or not, If they take it away i maybe a little happy, but if they dont, i wont care either, im the type of person who enjoys the grind and I don't mind a few bumps in the road every now and then, to me its all about the experience. I don't see this as a big issue like some people do, i'm more concerned about class balancing than anything else...

Nice game related post, we need more of these...
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Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2015, 08:21:06 AM »

    Offline GogetaAR

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I completely agree with your idea.

PS: Thank you for the immense wall of text.

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Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2015, 08:43:46 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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Something I forgot to add to my last post is that I've never liked to have my gear breaking when upgrading it in games. It sucks to grind so hard for materials just to lose it all (like it happened to me a million times in Mu Online).
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Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2015, 08:45:21 AM »
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1- the same as the original game, and second, that if they want to change or add things, do so,. because if so the game would come out in 2050   :P ,and we do not want. (Similar to the original first and second add new content basis) this would be the most correct for the game and its structure and stability. :), in generally.

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2015, 09:04:51 AM »

    Offline GogetaAR

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1- the same as the original game, and second, that if they want to change or add things, do so,. because if so the game would come out in 2050   :P ,and we do not want. (Similar to the original first and second add new content basis) this would be the most correct for the game and its structure and stability. :), in generally.
There's no need to tell that, I think that a person like @BlazingBarrager, that has already 7 dragon balls, knows that perfectly.

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Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2015, 11:15:41 AM »
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There's no need to tell that, I think that a person like @BlazingBarrager, that has already 7 dragon balls, knows that perfectly.
I'm actually trying to figure out what he's saying. XD

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2015, 12:08:05 PM »
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I appreciate the detail in this post. You learn something new every day. But I completely agree on this topic, having gear break while trying to upgrade is a complete waste of time. I know players who spent so much real money on tons of zeni just to buy really great gear just to begin upgrading and then it breaks after a certain point, its a rip off to me, once I broke my gear I said never again. The alternatives are much better, tbh to me anything is good other than it breaking and never getting it back, that's just brutal smh.

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2015, 02:03:27 PM »

    Offline Toragos

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This is already a large topic in DBOG but nonetheless I would like to post my thoughts on the old DBO Upgrade and Dogi System, or more specifically the break system. As you know, when upgrading your gear or adding effects to dogi items there is a chance that item will break and be lost. Honestly, this system needs to change and the break chance needs to be removed. Let me explain.

With gear (weapons and armor) you reach a point where upgrading becomes a game a chance. I'm sure a lot of you are going to say "oh but removing break will make it too easy" and "we have white stones for a reason." Both of those arguments are completely BS. Why? Because all and all we are at the mercy of the game's RNG system. For those who don't know, RNG stands for "Random Number Generator" and is quite common in games, especially MMOs. This system determines a number of factors such as what item drops, how much damage your skill does, your crit chance, etc. Even the upgrade and dogi system run under the RNG system. As such, the RNG system makes the current upgrade system a living hell.

What people don't take into account when debating about the upgrade and dogi system is all the factors that take place in the entire process. The first factor is getting the gear/dogi you want to modify which, unless it is coded to be a sure way of getting, will be completely random. You may be like "oh that's what farming is for newb," and you're right. However, people don't take into account the actual chances of getting what you want. In the RNG system, there are a set of numbers/code called "seeds" that are designated to each item with a different effect. When a mob is defeated the RNG will randomly select a set of seeds to act as how many drops there will be total as well as what kinds of drops will appear. Because of the sheer amount of items that have different values, rarity, levels, and effects the chances of getting rare items to appear is very, very slim. Now one way to improve this is by assigning more seeds to a specific item with a specific rarity and effect set. This increases the chance of the RNG selecting that seed and therefore generating that specific item. This is generally how low rank numbers/zeni are made. However, even increasing the number of seeds for a specific item doesn't improve the chances of it appearing by a lot. A common solution to keeping the break system is adding white stones as drops with a low chance of appearing as well as increasing the chances of upgrade stones appearing. Easy no? Well no it isn't. Adding items as drops only makes things worse because that increases the amount of seeds in the game's code, which means a larger list for the RNG system to work with and a lower chance of it hitting that specific seed.

Anyway, back to the main point. Because of how the RNG system works, you're going to be relying heavily on luck just to get that item you want to upgrade. You could get it in an hour, or you will get it in seven days of constant farming. It doesn't matter how many seeds are assigned to an item, because the sheer number of items, values, and such means that there is a incredibly large list of seeds for the RNG to work with. The only sure way to make sure you get the item you desire is to code the mob to specifically select that seed to insure that item will drop. This is generally how TMQs and UDs are set up, but even then it's not a sure thing because of the amount of values, types, and effects an item can have. And that's only the first factor you have to consider when thinking about the upgrade system.

The next factor is the upgrading process itself. Let's say you got your desired gear and are stocked on the upgrade stones you collected, and you decide to give upgrading a try. Now as we know there are is a set level in upgrades where you're guarantied to get a "Success" (+3 for armor and +6 for weapons). Once you reach that number, the upgrading game will switch over to three cards where you have to choose one in order to get either a Success, Fail, or Break. This is where the RNG system kicks in, because it generates the code that decides which card is positioned on the left, right, and center. As such, there is no way to tell which card is which turning the mini-game into a game of chance. This is where the annoyance the of upgrading comes in because this makes the entire process rely solely on luck, and you have to do this all the way up to +15 for each piece of equipment. As it is now, the odds are tremendously against the player and having the chance of the item breaking makes things ten times worse. Even using white stones doesn't increase your chances, because while you save your gear from being destroyed you still end up wasting an upgrade stone and, in the chance of hitting Success, a white stone. The worst part is that there is no way to increase the chances of hitting Success because its position is a set factor. As such, the best the devs can do is make it "tolerable."

So how can we make the system tolerable? Well for starters get rid of the break chance. Because of all the factors determined by the RNG system, the player is put at a huge disadvantage so getting rid of the break chance won't make things as easy as people think. If anything, it just makes upgrading less of a pain. Now in the place of the break system we can either...

a) make it to where hitting "Broken" results in downgrading the item by a random number
b) make it to where hitting "Broken" results in the gear's condition rate decreasing by a random amount to where if it hits 0 it needs to be repaired before attempting further upgrading.

Regardless of either choice white stones can still be used to negate the punishing effect and make it a simple "Fail," because again you won't lose/damage your gear but you still waste an upgrade stone. These are my thoughts anyway.

As for the dogi system, I believe that it is also too luck based to have a chance of the item being destroyed. Not only that, but unlike armor and weapons you can't farm for dogis or dogi effect balls and either get them as special rewards (like from Budokai for example) or through events/donations. As such, having a break chance on dogis makes the player think the process is too risky and should be avoided. This is especially true for some of the rarest dogis that can appear as a one time only deal or are ridiculously hard to get (like the C17/cowboy WP dogi in old DBO). Removing the break chance for dogis will make things less stressful but not too easy because the effects and their values will still be determined by the RNG system and you can end up wasting 10 dogi balls and still not get what you want.

Anyway, sorry for the large post. I just felt that I needed to explain some things before people start going on saying "this makes it too easy" and such.
XD that wall of text and here is the potato

You right about the upgrade system it is an old system for game companies to make huge amount of money, but in the end people hated it, WOW and Tera dont have that system its to old and players in generally hates when items break. Just break the upgradestones instead and maybe downgrade if the armor was +5 and you tried to upgrade it, and it failed it would loose -1 or -2. So its back on +3 again and you start over. Its much better in my opinion. :) Thx Blaze

"Aww what’s the matter? You’re the one who started this game. Now you’re losing and you don’t want to play any more."

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2015, 12:10:05 AM »
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dat long ass text xDDD
Copy & Paste or written?  ::) ...if written...respect xDDD

it all sounds nice etc. but i think the option of break is kinda needed....
Why?

Well...if stuff wouldn't break then there'll be too much good stuff. People wanna sell them. And if many ppl wanna sell that good stuff it'll drop the price. Players will be able to get very good stuff/good stuff very cheap. And this could/will end in making the game easy....

Would be like on KR version where nice stuff was around 20kk...and in TW/HK version it was much more worth it...well ok...on KR were not many ppl but you could clearly see the amount of good stuff there^^

I'm not really sure if i like this suggestion or not hahahah xDD ...sure...if stuff breaks you'll rage...really much...and yea...you may waste your time on some stuff and this sounds crazy but i still liked that the option of break. This way i always had something to do ingame^^
*click for original size*

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2015, 12:40:47 AM »

    Offline GogetaAR

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I'm actually trying to figure out what he's saying. XD

I think he was saying the team should focus on finishing the game first and then add new things if they want.

PS: His translator is awful, I know.

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Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2015, 01:11:46 AM »
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dat long ass text xDDD
Copy & Paste or written?  ::) ...if written...respect xDDD

it all sounds nice etc. but i think the option of break is kinda needed....
Why?

Well...if stuff wouldn't break then there'll be too much good stuff. People wanna sell them. And if many ppl wanna sell that good stuff it'll drop the price. Players will be able to get very good stuff/good stuff very cheap. And this could/will end in making the game easy....

Would be like on KR version where nice stuff was around 20kk...and in TW/HK version it was much more worth it...well ok...on KR were not many ppl but you could clearly see the amount of good stuff there^^

I'm not really sure if i like this suggestion or not hahahah xDD ...sure...if stuff breaks you'll rage...really much...and yea...you may waste your time on some stuff and this sounds crazy but i still liked that the option of break. This way i always had something to do ingame^^
That's what a lot of people think. Here's the problem though. Even without the break system getting your piece of equipment to high upgrade levels is going to be a challenge in itself, especially when you have the chance for your piece of equipment to downgrade in the mix. As I explained, the RNG system isn't very merciful with the players so you may end up wasting like 50 green upgrade stones and not even reach +10. Having a break system just makes upgrading absolutely unfair to the player.

As for it effecting the economy, removing the break system will actually not effect it too much if at all. As I said, just getting a legendary piece of equipment with the right effect and value is a big challenge (especially if you don't have boxes). Getting that piece to a high upgrade level makes it even harder. All and all, people can still sell good gear for high prices because they still put a lot of work into getting that piece of equipment to the way they want.

And yes I wrote that entire post (and this as well). Kiyza isn't the only one here who can write ridiculously long posts you know. XD

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2015, 01:18:20 AM »

    Offline Iceman

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I really don't get why soo much changes...

I understand if it comes from people who never played but from people who play it...

What needs to be done:
1. GET SERVER WORKING
2. FIX BUGS
3. Make some balance
4. Play and have fun

Please no more about this topic, if you keep pushing this way than DBOR won't look like DBO that we all get used to it.
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Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2015, 01:30:51 AM »
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I really don't get why soo much changes...

I understand if it comes from people who never played but from people who play it...

What needs to be done:
1. GET SERVER WORKING
2. FIX BUGS
3. Make some balance
4. Play and have fun

Please no more about this topic, if you keep pushing this way than DBOR won't look like DBO that we all get used to it.
First off, that's not your decision to make Iceman. Second, what would be the point of a Suggestion board if they wouldn't even be implanting ideas. Third, keeping systems the way they were in old DBO won't change how DBO works. In fact, some systems absolutely need to change because of how horrible or unfair they were in the old DBO. The Upgrade and Dogi system are prime examples of this.

Oh, and don't talk about balance when you don't even know how balancing works.

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2015, 01:49:36 AM »
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First off, that's not your decision to make Iceman. Second, what would be the point of a Suggestion board if they wouldn't even be implanting ideas. Third, keeping systems the way they were in old DBO won't change how DBO works. In fact, some systems absolutely need to change because of how horrible or unfair they were in the old DBO. The Upgrade and Dogi system are prime examples of this.

Oh, and don't talk about balance when you don't even know how balancing works.
That last part was quite rude. :dumke:

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2015, 01:50:06 AM »

    Offline Iceman

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First off, that's not your decision to make Iceman. Second, what would be the point of a Suggestion board if they wouldn't even be implanting ideas. Third, keeping systems the way they were in old DBO won't change how DBO works. In fact, some systems absolutely need to change because of how horrible or unfair they were in the old DBO. The Upgrade and Dogi system are prime examples of this.

Oh, and don't talk about balance when you don't even know how balancing works.

How the naughtyword you know anything about me?

Come on man, you want something else that isn't DBO at all.
I saw posts there on DBOG and here, levels for SSJ and all other things...

If you don't like DBO then go make game you like or want.


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Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2015, 02:08:38 AM »
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How the popo you know anything about me?

Come on man, you want something else that isn't DBO at all.
I saw posts there on DBOG and here, levels for SSJ and all other things...

If you don't like DBO then go make game you like or want.
This isn't about making DBO into something entirely different, it's about making it better. The devs of DBOG and DBOR have way more creative control than what they had in the old DBO, so they should use that to their advantage and implement things that NTL wouldn't even bother to think about. Keeping the game like the old DBO will just end up killing it again.

That last part was quite rude. :dumke:
The guy complains that touching the Shadow Knight's Bold Strike skill will make the race unplayable while saying that increasing Dark Warrior and Grand Chef attack is all the balance we need. :/

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2015, 03:59:58 AM »

    Offline Toragos

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Back on topic
dat long ass text xDDD
Copy & Paste or written?  ::) ...if written...respect xDDD

it all sounds nice etc. but i think the option of break is kinda needed....
Why?

Well...if stuff wouldn't break then there'll be too much good stuff. People wanna sell them. And if many ppl wanna sell that good stuff it'll drop the price. Players will be able to get very good stuff/good stuff very cheap. And this could/will end in making the game easy....

Would be like on KR version where nice stuff was around 20kk...and in TW/HK version it was much more worth it...well ok...on KR were not many ppl but you could clearly see the amount of good stuff there^^

I'm not really sure if i like this suggestion or not hahahah xDD ...sure...if stuff breaks you'll rage...really much...and yea...you may waste your time on some stuff and this sounds crazy but i still liked that the option of break. This way i always had something to do ingame^^

Well it wont hurt economy at all, the game will be better if we remove the breaksystem and implement downgrade item instead then you can farm as much as you want for stones. You will still have a hard time getting it to +15 I ensure you that, if we remove the whitestone. This is an option, but I will still be glad if we get the old DBO back. But the upgrade system is kinda old and all the new ones are using a system were it doesnt break your item. Both you and Blazing have a valid point of view. :)
"Aww what’s the matter? You’re the one who started this game. Now you’re losing and you don’t want to play any more."

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2015, 05:32:21 AM »
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  • 海賊王におれはなる!!! / Whazzzzuuuup!?
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well...then the stones will become expensive xD

No matter what change you do on upgrade stuff....it will have an influence...maybe a big one^^
But well...the last choice will be made by the Team...they decide. At the beginning it was meant that it'll be the same DBO we used to play. Just with better class balance and some little changes/features/extras. I'm still not sure if i like this or not....

P.S.: If this suggestion should ever happen in DBOR...and if i should have problems earning zenny i will hunt you... I'm the farmer...and i wanna earn zenny like i did in DBO... ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)

*click for original size*

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2015, 05:49:52 AM »

    Offline Roxas

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well...then the stones will become expensive xD

No matter what change you do on upgrade stuff....it will have an influence...maybe a big one^^
But well...the last choice will be made by the Team...they decide. At the beginning it was meant that it'll be the same DBO we used to play. Just with better class balance and some little changes/features/extras. I'm still not sure if i like this or not....

P.S.: If this suggestion should ever happen in DBOR...and if i should have problems earning zenny i will hunt you... I'm the farmer...and i wanna earn zenny like i did in DBO... ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)


I don't really care about this thread . But that is a hilarious video XD

Didnt your parents tell you not to play with me? Youll get burned.

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2015, 06:02:12 AM »
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well...then the stones will become expensive xD
Stones (green, purple, and white with high levels anyway) were already expensive in the old DBO. This wouldn't make a difference.

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2015, 06:19:02 AM »
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  • 海賊王におれはなる!!! / Whazzzzuuuup!?
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Stones (green, purple, and white with high levels anyway) were already expensive in the old DBO. This wouldn't make a difference.

well...i know...i played on TW S1....but i was still able to buy them  ;)

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Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2015, 06:31:48 AM »

    Offline Tomlanji

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The old upgrade system was terrible. I would want a change like this.

Upgrade and Dogi System modification/RNG system explanation
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2015, 06:44:43 AM »

    Offline Iceman

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This isn't about making DBO into something entirely different, it's about making it better. The devs of DBOG and DBOR have way more creative control than what they had in the old DBO, so they should use that to their advantage and implement things that NTL wouldn't even bother to think about. Keeping the game like the old DBO will just end up killing it again.
The guy complains that touching the Shadow Knight's Bold Strike skill will make the race unplayable while saying that increasing Dark Warrior and Grand Chef attack is all the balance we need. :/

I do not complain and I suggest that since it is easy to do.
If we touch every skill and work on it it will last too much.
Do you want game for 2 years now, or wait 1 more year or what?

About SK, I don't want that SK become what was DW.
No one really play it, only few.


well...then the stones will become expensive xD

No matter what change you do on upgrade stuff....it will have an influence...maybe a big one^^
But well...the last choice will be made by the Team...they decide. At the beginning it was meant that it'll be the same DBO we used to play. Just with better class balance and some little changes/features/extras. I'm still not sure if i like this or not....

P.S.: If this suggestion should ever happen in DBOR...and if i should have problems earning zenny i will hunt you... I'm the farmer...and i wanna earn zenny like i did in DBO... ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)



And this...
IGN: IcemanBos
Class: Shadow Knight
Guild: Pride Warriors