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Topic: Dragon Ball Super  (Read 152236 times)

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Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1125 on: August 16, 2017, 01:10:13 AM »
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Maybe it's possible cuz Zeno might be the creator or the Super Dragon Balls? You have to speak God language to make a wish...so my guess is that Zeno created them.  ^-^
I thought it was stated that a Dragon god called Zalama created them.



'Listen, Son Goku. You are the personification of the failure of the Gods who've created this universe!'

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1126 on: August 17, 2017, 03:37:00 AM »

    Offline Nia

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I'm half expecting that none of the universes actually got erased, and instead it's all just a plot to make everyone fight their best.

Because... Trolliyama!


"I am the bone of my sword
 Steel is my body and fire is my blood
 I have created over a thousand blades
 Unknown to Death, Nor known to Life
 Have withstood pain to create many weapons
 Yet, those hands will never hold anything
 So as I pray, Unlimited Blade Works."

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1127 on: August 18, 2017, 07:34:00 AM »
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Full Body view of Son Goku and his new Form...

Spoiler for Hidden:

It's assumed that Goku will use this Form to fight Jiren. In my opinion this makes sense. We all know Jiren seems to be a few steps further than SSJB form.

source: http://us.blastingnews.com/showbiz-tv/2017/08/dragon-ball-super-gokus-new-transformation-will-give-him-silver-eyes-001935307.html
*click for original size*

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1128 on: August 18, 2017, 08:35:07 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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Gonna call it Half Super Saiyajin for now. His hair spikes up a bit, but not enough, and his eyes change color (although not the SSJ color).
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Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1129 on: August 18, 2017, 09:41:31 PM »
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I heard the image is a pre-transformation, or like Goku in the process of transforming, and that's why the hair looks like that, not fully up in the hair.

He is way more muscular though and kinda reminds me of Ssj4 with that look.
"I will make you and everyone in this village recognize me, for one day... I will be hokage!"-Deadpool

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1130 on: August 23, 2017, 01:36:05 AM »

    Offline Shyruni

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So, I could just simply comment on where Super is now, but I feel like being an absolute fanboy and commenting on details on the new form seem interesting to start with.

I feel what stood out to me right away was the eyes.  They're very feral, very reminiscent of SSJ4.  Actually, a lot of this form is reminiscent of SSJ4, including going back to the standard hair color of the Saiyans, the build, and the feral eyes as mentioned per earlier.  Obviously there's a lot of differences, but I can't help but wonder if it will be a somewhat similar concept: perhaps this version of Goku will be even more out of control and wild than the rest.

I kinda want to wait until the arc is over to give my full thoughts on it, but so far the arc has been promising to say the least.  My biggest problems so far is that at this point the series has lost all care whatsoever about powerlevels and power scaling and has just gone full blown nuts.  While I don't mind this necessarily (and powerlevels have been tossed out awhile back), we're having things like Krillin being able to take on SSJB Goku for a brief period, or Android #17 being as strong as Goku, or...things like this.



I don't mind most of the changes, but I feel like they're starting to go the manga route of "any kind of naughtyword goes", which is a little concerning.  However, I'm going to focus on being open minded until the arc ends since this might not continue down the path of no return. 
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Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1131 on: August 23, 2017, 02:01:28 AM »
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Dunno about others but i'm just watching DBS out of nostalgia xD
I'm not really into it but i still wanna see it. And the thing that bugs me the most right now is that we mostly see only Goku. I know that in the past it was also mostly about Goku, but in DBS it's just about Goku. We have a damn tournament here. They should show us fights of the rest of the Team too. Right now as i'm typing this, i think i haven't really seen Tien fighting. Did he fight anyone? Don't really remember. Also, Vegeta is hard to see too. Even though he and Goku are pretty much the hope of the Team we hardly see him. But Goku pops up everywhere xD

I think they took this "it's all about Goku" thing too far in DBS. And now he gets another Form again. I hope we get to see Vegeta using SSJG form (the red one) in the Tournament...just to give him another form too ya'know  ::) (In the DBS Manga he transformed into SSJG)

So my opinion on this Arc so far is: i don't really like it but i still watch it xD
*click for original size*

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1132 on: August 23, 2017, 04:07:54 AM »

    Offline Nia

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I think they took this "it's all about Goku" thing too far in DBS. And now he gets another Form again. I hope we get to see Vegeta using SSJG form (the red one) in the Tournament...just to give him another form too ya'know  ::) (In the DBS Manga he transformed into SSJG)

To be honest, the "it's all about Goku" stuff is even worse in the manga:
- Goku is depicted as being able to slap Hit around even before using God form (which he shouldn't have, but he shouldn't have it in the anime either in all fairness). He's basically ragdolling Hit and then uses SSJ Blue to show off.
- As naughtyword as SSJ Ikari was, it at least made Trunks relevant in what's literally referred to as the Future Trunks arc. Instead, he takes a back seat to Goku and Jobgeta.
- Instead of Trunks getting the naughtyword SSJ Ikari power up, Goku gets a lolpowerup and now has a Mastered SSJ Blue that for some reason he never used until the last moment, but it makes him capable of fighting Merged Zamasu better than when he was fused with Vegeta into Vegetto, despite Vegeta being the one who was training for such a thing
- Goku can now use a God of Destruction's Hakai... despite the fact that he is neither a God of Destruction nor has he even actually seen Beerus use it in the manga (Goku is not present when Beerus uses it on Zamasu in the manga). This actually creates a plothole as Vegeta recognizes it, too... despite never having seen it.

Although, maybe you meant DBS in general, and not just the anime? If so, I apologize for my mini-rant. I do think the anime has been putting too much emphasis on Goku, although the last episode mostly had him just getting in the way and getting slapped around to make Hit look more badass.
I am still annoyed that he suddenly has the Godku form in the anime with no explanation though. It pissed me off in the manga too, but it feels like it was just a cheap cameo in the anime and probably will never show up again (kinda like his Wolverine-esque healing factor and universe punching in the first terribad arc).


"I am the bone of my sword
 Steel is my body and fire is my blood
 I have created over a thousand blades
 Unknown to Death, Nor known to Life
 Have withstood pain to create many weapons
 Yet, those hands will never hold anything
 So as I pray, Unlimited Blade Works."

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1133 on: August 23, 2017, 05:07:55 AM »
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Tbh i was only talking about the Anime. But you are 100% right about the Manga. It's the same over there. I think i'm just disappointed that even though this arc is meant to be a Teamplay thing, we still only get to see Goku shine. And as i wrote before, even Vegeta who is pretty much as strong as Goku doesn't get enough screen time. Thank God we'll get to see some Roshi action in the next Episode where he also might end up getting kicked out but i hope that he stays for a little bit more. And i wanna see some action from Tien too.

*click for original size*

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1134 on: August 23, 2017, 06:15:16 AM »

    Offline Nia

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Tbh i was only talking about the Anime. But you are 100% right about the Manga. It's the same over there. I think i'm just disappointed that even though this arc is meant to be a Teamplay thing, we still only get to see Goku shine. And as i wrote before, even Vegeta who is pretty much as strong as Goku doesn't get enough screen time. Thank God we'll get to see some Roshi action in the next Episode where he also might end up getting kicked out but i hope that he stays for a little bit more. And i wanna see some action from Tien too.

I would like to see more of the other members getting their time to shine, too. Especially after Kuririn beat two opponents (one of whom with his shoe which still got a good laugh out of me).
I'm guessing we haven't seen Vegeta in a while because he's still making this face:


But I do agree that there has been too much of a focus on Goku in this arc. He didn't even need to be in the fight with Hit (who completely stole the show for the episode, despite the overhyped return of Godku).
...Which probably means Hit is gonna get BTFO by Jiren, since this just screams "JOBBING!"


"I am the bone of my sword
 Steel is my body and fire is my blood
 I have created over a thousand blades
 Unknown to Death, Nor known to Life
 Have withstood pain to create many weapons
 Yet, those hands will never hold anything
 So as I pray, Unlimited Blade Works."

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1135 on: August 23, 2017, 03:15:29 PM »

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I heard the image is a pre-transformation, or like Goku in the process of transforming, and that's why the hair looks like that, not fully up in the hair.

He is way more muscular though and kinda reminds me of Ssj4 with that look.

That's definitively the complete form. This has been the poster for DBS since the tournament began if I recall correctly:


Now, I won't read all the other comments because I just happened to check the forums quickly before bed. I don't have time to read all that right now. :P
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Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1136 on: September 11, 2017, 08:57:48 PM »
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Eh. Am I the only one who wants this arc to end?



'Listen, Son Goku. You are the personification of the failure of the Gods who've created this universe!'

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1137 on: September 11, 2017, 11:04:35 PM »

    Offline Tofu

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Eh. Am I the only one who wants this arc to end?

It's not like I want it to end. I like the arc, but it's taking too long. Every episode lasts about a minute, and the fight lasts for like 45 minutes total!
MarineCorps
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Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1138 on: September 13, 2017, 04:09:52 AM »

    Offline Shyruni

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It's not like I want it to end. I like the arc, but it's taking too long. Every episode lasts about a minute, and the fight lasts for like 45 minutes total!

Isn't that what DBZ has always done?

I will say I've felt this arc has been...somewhat disappointing so far?   It's hard to say, but for some reason the tournament itself has felt somewhat lackluster.  I can't quite put my finger on how exactly it's not working well off of its buildup, but it just seems too basic.  Again, not sure why.
We WILL Protect the Peace!

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1139 on: September 14, 2017, 12:10:50 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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Isn't that what DBZ has always done?

And I've never liked that from DBZ, but I can deal with it because I like almost everything else. That's the reason why I haven't re-watched it though.

I will say I've felt this arc has been...somewhat disappointing so far?   It's hard to say, but for some reason the tournament itself has felt somewhat lackluster.  I can't quite put my finger on how exactly it's not working well off of its buildup, but it just seems too basic.  Again, not sure why.

I know what you mean, but being this just buildup, I can deal with it. Now, if the end result is disappointing too, I'll be... Honestly, I don't know. :P
Since I'm watching it every week as it airs, I can deal with it, but probably wouldn't finish it if I had to binge the whole thing.
MarineCorps
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Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1140 on: September 25, 2017, 09:37:54 AM »

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i kinda like it... its not what it used to be but its still enjoyable.

Perfect... another one of those guys.

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1141 on: September 29, 2017, 08:25:19 AM »

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I seriously can't believe there are DB fans actually following DBS. Not trying to be a troll, but I just can't watch that shit. So childish it ruined completely everything. I wtached the last episodes released (that universal tenkaichi budokai arc) and, besides the inmature Goku "Hey, I'm Goku! You wanna fight?" the animation is terribly and all that destruction gods and so seems like Toriyama is trying to stretch the gum beyond it makes sense, even for a cartoon. Supreme Kaiosamas should have been the strongest gods but okay... I know Toriyama can do whatever he wants, I probably would do the same thing, but as a viewer of one of the best things ever happen to me in my childhood, I just want it to stop.

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1142 on: September 30, 2017, 10:38:16 AM »

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I seriously can't believe there are DB fans actually following DBS. Not trying to be a troll, but I just can't watch that shit. So childish it ruined completely everything. I wtached the last episodes released (that universal tenkaichi budokai arc) and, besides the inmature Goku "Hey, I'm Goku! You wanna fight?" the animation is terribly and all that destruction gods and so seems like Toriyama is trying to stretch the gum beyond it makes sense, even for a cartoon. Supreme Kaiosamas should have been the strongest gods but okay... I know Toriyama can do whatever he wants, I probably would do the same thing, but as a viewer of one of the best things ever happen to me in my childhood, I just want it to stop.

Release the Kraken @Nia!

There's a lot of stuff I could say about this, but I know Nia will do a better job at that.
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Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1143 on: September 30, 2017, 11:19:26 AM »

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Release the Kraken @Nia!

There's a lot of stuff I could say about this, but I know Nia will do a better job at that.

Ugh... gonna make me do the dirty work, huh?
Fine. Should charge you by the word, ya lazy bum.

I seriously can't believe there are DB fans actually following DBS. Not trying to be a troll, but I just can't watch that shit. So childish it ruined completely everything. I wtached the last episodes released (that universal tenkaichi budokai arc) and, besides the inmature Goku "Hey, I'm Goku! You wanna fight?" the animation is terribly and all that destruction gods and so seems like Toriyama is trying to stretch the gum beyond it makes sense, even for a cartoon. Supreme Kaiosamas should have been the strongest gods but okay... I know Toriyama can do whatever he wants, I probably would do the same thing, but as a viewer of one of the best things ever happen to me in my childhood, I just want it to stop.

There's so much wrong here that I don't know where to begin.
First off, how is it actually any more childish than the original series? Dragon Ball always had dumb puns, fart jokes, and goofy characters. Ginyu Force, 'nuff said.

Goku has ALWAYS been immature. I don't know where people keep getting this idea that he's ever been anything other than a dipstick that enjoyed fighting more than anything else, and if anything, it was pretty clear when he went to fight Freeza on that he was turning into more-and-more of a fight-happy blood knight. The only time he's ever been depicted otherwise is in the awful FUNImation dub.
This is a man who spared Vegeta because he wanted to beat him with his own power. A man who gave a Senzu to Cell because he wanted it to be a fair fight between him and his prepubescent son. A man who decided "Nah, I won't finish off Majin Buu because I think the untrained children who I don't even believe can win will have a chance to fight." A man so woefully ignorant that he promised to marry someone because he thought he was gonna get fed, and only went through with it BECAUSE he promised, despite having no concept of family.
Vegeta even mentions this when he pays respect to Goku during the fight with Buu; that Goku is so strong not because he has something to protect or because he's some kind of hero, but because he's so insanely simple minded that his only goal in life is to surpass his limit.
Goku is an idiot savant; a man-child fight junkie. He has almost no sense of responsibility, is endlessly reckless, and lives only to serve his own desire to fight. As Yajirobe and Muten Roshi once discussed (word for word from the English manga):
Yajirobe: "Jeez, why's he look so jazzed when something so horrible is happening!?"
Roshi: "I can only think it's the Saiyan blood... He does want to save them... but part of him just loves going up against powerful opponents...!"
Yajirobe: "I don't know wheter to admire the guy or pity him... I mean, he's obviously got no chance."
Goku (with a big ol' happy look on his face): "I can't believe it! Fighters even stronger than Vegeta!"


Why should the Kaioshin be the strongest gods? They were already far weaker than a Super-Saiyajin to the point where Goku basically laughed in one's face when he was told that he needed to beat Dabura in order to save Kuririn and Piccolo.

Also, I'm pretty tired of people claiming "the animation is terrible." Yeah, the first two arcs and that filler arc with the fake Vegeta were pretty awful, but very little since then could be considered even remotely as bad as Uchiyama's or a few other's terrible animation. And before you try to say anything about inbetweens, no... these whole scenes/episodes were frequently fugly beyond belief.
Spoiler for Hidden:




Three of those images were from movies with a larger budget, no less. Now I'm not saying DBS has great animation in general. It's pretty average. But it's honestly no worse than Z's... and at times, it's absolutely spectacular (like any cut by Naotoshi Shida):

Sure, the animation could be better in a lot of places. Yeah, the art isn't as great as it could be. But it's still nowhere near 'bad' like those first two arcs or Beerus forbid something like this:
Spoiler for Hidden:

If you wanna complain about something in DBS, then complain about something like the overdone filler (which guess what... DBZ had that too!), or the baffling random return of Godku. Hell, complain about the entire lack of power scaling (you can either have Gohan and the others relevant, or you can have it be the Goku or Vegeta show, take your pick).
But these claims of "Goku is stupid now" or "the animation is bad" sound like the ramblings of someone who never watched either of the original series. Goku was, is, and always shall be a dumbass, and the animation was rarely even close to top-of-the-line. Go back and watch it. For every episode done by someone like Minoru Maeda, there's 4 Uchiyama episodes.

The current arc has kinda started to drag a little, but you know what? So did the Freeza arc. So did the Buu arc. For KamiDaimao's sake, the Cell arc was straight up sluggish at times even in the manga. Hell, the Saiyajin arc had something like 20 episodes of filler.
DBS really isn't that far a cry from the original anime. Time to take off the nostalgia goggles, for better or worse.

...Also, the Future Trunks arc was legitimately one of the best Dragon Ball arcs period, with TWO of the best villains in the form of Zamasu and Black. They're better than Cell. The Cell arc was boring. There, I said it.


"I am the bone of my sword
 Steel is my body and fire is my blood
 I have created over a thousand blades
 Unknown to Death, Nor known to Life
 Have withstood pain to create many weapons
 Yet, those hands will never hold anything
 So as I pray, Unlimited Blade Works."

Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1144 on: September 30, 2017, 12:21:21 PM »

    Offline Tofu

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Ugh... gonna make me do the dirty work, huh?
Fine. Should charge you by the word, ya lazy bum.

There's so much wrong here that I don't know where to begin.
First off, how is it actually any more childish than the original series? Dragon Ball always had dumb puns, fart jokes, and goofy characters. Ginyu Force, 'nuff said.

Goku has ALWAYS been immature. I don't know where people keep getting this idea that he's ever been anything other than a dipstick that enjoyed fighting more than anything else, and if anything, it was pretty clear when he went to fight Freeza on that he was turning into more-and-more of a fight-happy blood knight. The only time he's ever been depicted otherwise is in the awful FUNImation dub.
This is a man who spared Vegeta because he wanted to beat him with his own power. A man who gave a Senzu to Cell because he wanted it to be a fair fight between him and his prepubescent son. A man who decided "Nah, I won't finish off Majin Buu because I think the untrained children who I don't even believe can win will have a chance to fight." A man so woefully ignorant that he promised to marry someone because he thought he was gonna get fed, and only went through with it BECAUSE he promised, despite having no concept of family.
Vegeta even mentions this when he pays respect to Goku during the fight with Buu; that Goku is so strong not because he has something to protect or because he's some kind of hero, but because he's so insanely simple minded that his only goal in life is to surpass his limit.
Goku is an idiot savant; a man-child fight junkie. He has almost no sense of responsibility, is endlessly reckless, and lives only to serve his own desire to fight. As Yajirobe and Muten Roshi once discussed (word for word from the English manga):
Yajirobe: "Jeez, why's he look so jazzed when something so horrible is happening!?"
Roshi: "I can only think it's the Saiyan blood... He does want to save them... but part of him just loves going up against powerful opponents...!"
Yajirobe: "I don't know wheter to admire the guy or pity him... I mean, he's obviously got no chance."
Goku (with a big ol' happy look on his face): "I can't believe it! Fighters even stronger than Vegeta!"


Why should the Kaioshin be the strongest gods? They were already far weaker than a Super-Saiyajin to the point where Goku basically laughed in one's face when he was told that he needed to beat Dabura in order to save Kuririn and Piccolo.

Also, I'm pretty tired of people claiming "the animation is terrible." Yeah, the first two arcs and that filler arc with the fake Vegeta were pretty awful, but very little since then could be considered even remotely as bad as Uchiyama's or a few other's terrible animation. And before you try to say anything about inbetweens, no... these whole scenes/episodes were frequently fugly beyond belief.
Spoiler for Hidden:




Three of those images were from movies with a larger budget, no less. Now I'm not saying DBS has great animation in general. It's pretty average. But it's honestly no worse than Z's... and at times, it's absolutely spectacular (like any cut by Naotoshi Shida):

Sure, the animation could be better in a lot of places. Yeah, the art isn't as great as it could be. But it's still nowhere near 'bad' like those first two arcs or Beerus forbid something like this:
Spoiler for Hidden:

If you wanna complain about something in DBS, then complain about something like the overdone filler (which guess what... DBZ had that too!), or the baffling random return of Godku. Hell, complain about the entire lack of power scaling (you can either have Gohan and the others relevant, or you can have it be the Goku or Vegeta show, take your pick).
But these claims of "Goku is stupid now" or "the animation is bad" sound like the ramblings of someone who never watched either of the original series. Goku was, is, and always shall be a dumbass, and the animation was rarely even close to top-of-the-line. Go back and watch it. For every episode done by someone like Minoru Maeda, there's 4 Uchiyama episodes.

The current arc has kinda started to drag a little, but you know what? So did the Freeza arc. So did the Buu arc. For KamiDaimao's sake, the Cell arc was straight up sluggish at times even in the manga. Hell, the Saiyajin arc had something like 20 episodes of filler.
DBS really isn't that far a cry from the original anime. Time to take off the nostalgia goggles, for better or worse.

...Also, the Future Trunks arc was legitimately one of the best Dragon Ball arcs period, with TWO of the best villains in the form of Zamasu and Black. They're better than Cell.

May I add that many people complain about Super being childish. These people clearly didn't watch Dragon Ball and all they know is Dragon Ball Z. Yes, there was a show before Dragon Ball Z called Dragon Ball, which tells the story of Goku between the ages of 14 and 18 (if I recall correctly), and it was a way more childish and cartoonish tone. It was constant jokes and everything was made dumb intentionally.

The Cell arc was boring. There, I said it.

Screw you! The Cell arc was amazing. I still don't understand your issues with it.
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Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1145 on: September 30, 2017, 01:29:25 PM »

    Offline Nia

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May I add that many people complain about Super being childish. These people clearly didn't watch Dragon Ball and all they know is Dragon Ball Z. Yes, there was a show before Dragon Ball Z called Dragon Ball, which tells the story of Goku between the ages of 14 and 18 (if I recall correctly), and it was a way more childish and cartoonish tone. It was constant jokes and everything was made dumb intentionally.

Screw you! The Cell arc was amazing. I still don't understand your issues with it.

He started at 12 and aged to 18 over the course.
...And I mean, technically speaking the original manga was all Dragon Ball. There really wasn't a "Z" manga.

As for my problems with the Cell arc...
Spoiler for Hidden:
It introduces Trunks, a cool new character, and proceeds to do nothing with him. The Jinzoningen are introduced... and do nothing. #17 and #18 go immediately from being threatening, to being plot points sitting in a truck waiting for Cell to absorb them. Poor #16 is entirely meaningless in the long run, and essentially exists only as a plot MacGuffin for Gohan's SSJ2 transformation (and because of all the editor interference, we'll likely never know what his original role was going to be). Cell is introduced, and he's fun for a while, but once he reaches his perfect form, he basically just becomes Freeza again ("I'm stronger than you!" when winning, "IT'S NOT FAIR!" when losing).
Outside of Vegeta and Piccolo, nobody really does anything for the whole arc. And those two are basically just there to job. Well, I guess Kuririn has a bit more going on to his credit, but it basically amounts to nothing in the end.
The entire arc is spent with people waiting for Goku (again, just like the Freeza arc, except the Freeza arc had Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta actually doing stuff while Goku was on his way).
The ending to the arc is complete nonsense, too. Gohan does even less than everyone else for the entire story arc, and then suddenly gets a lolpowerup out of nowhere at the ass end. Had the arc ended with Vegeta killing Cell, it might've actually meant something, since this was the arc Vegeta had his change of heart.
But Gohan? Gohan sits on his ass and does nothing, and gets SSJ2 just because, and his motivations for it are just silly. Best friends and dad (and Goku) about to die? "Gonna just sit here and cry!" Random android I've never met before who wants to kill my dad gives a cheesey speech and dies? "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!"
Worse yet, it drags on pretty long in the manga, while the anime is almost unwatcheable (did we really need two whole episodes of Cell giving a monologue and charging the Kamehame-Ha?).

It's also the arc entirely devoid of humor. There's very little of Toriyama's trademark comedy to be found in the arc, likely because his editor (who kept forcing him to change plot points, which is probably why everyone was useless) kept trying to force him into a direction that's not natural for him.

It's also the arc that starts the stuff most people blame the Buu arc for. The random powerups. Super-Saiyajin being marginalized to the point where everyone has it. Non-Saiyajin characters start to become cannon fodder. I'd say waiting for Goku, but... let's be honest, that started with the Saiyajin arc; problem is they were usually doing something (fighting, dying, stealing from Freeza, etc.) while waiting for Goku in the last two arcs. When Goku arrived, it was usually for his "big damn hero" moment. This one? He arrives while they're quite literally sitting on their asses, asking "hey, is Goku here yet?" Also, everyone relevant to the plot (except Kuririn) gets a transformation (except Goku, who just masters his old one).

Don't get me wrong, the arc has good moments. There are memorable scenes (even if many of the lead ups into it aren't great). But outside of those moments, the story is pretty tedious and dull. Even the time traveller winds up just kinda being there once he kills Freeza.

It's easily the weakest arc of Z, and possibly the whole series (in canon, there's definitely worse filler arcs).
 It lacks the threat of the Saiyajin arc, the surivalistic nature of the Freeza arc, or the goofy over-the-top nature of the Buu arc, and winds up trying to be the 'dark and serious' arc without the build up of something like the Daimao arc.

In a way, the anime version of the Future Trunks arc is likely what the Cell arc was going to be before Toriyama's editor kept telling him to change it. Despite mostly focusing on Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta we got an insight to the cast's motivations, great foreshadowing to the next arc, acompelling, unique villain, a sense of despair without losing it's humor, an interesting ongoing narrative, and character development (for both sides of the conflict no less!), and perhaps most importantly... Trunks was actually relevant instead of being sidelined. And it did so in only 20 episodes!

It may be a hyperbole to call it outright boring, but when compared to so much else in Dragon Ball, it slows to an utter crawl and it never really reaches the highs the rest of the story does, and the main antagonist is just kinda a more boring version of the last main antagonist.


"I am the bone of my sword
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Dragon Ball Super
« Reply #1146 on: October 01, 2017, 04:36:00 AM »

    Offline Tofu

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He started at 12 and aged to 18 over the course.
...And I mean, technically speaking the original manga was all Dragon Ball. There really wasn't a "Z" manga.

As for my problems with the Cell arc...
Spoiler for Hidden:
It introduces Trunks, a cool new character, and proceeds to do nothing with him. The Jinzoningen are introduced... and do nothing. #17 and #18 go immediately from being threatening, to being plot points sitting in a truck waiting for Cell to absorb them. Poor #16 is entirely meaningless in the long run, and essentially exists only as a plot MacGuffin for Gohan's SSJ2 transformation (and because of all the editor interference, we'll likely never know what his original role was going to be). Cell is introduced, and he's fun for a while, but once he reaches his perfect form, he basically just becomes Freeza again ("I'm stronger than you!" when winning, "IT'S NOT FAIR!" when losing).
Outside of Vegeta and Piccolo, nobody really does anything for the whole arc. And those two are basically just there to job. Well, I guess Kuririn has a bit more going on to his credit, but it basically amounts to nothing in the end.
The entire arc is spent with people waiting for Goku (again, just like the Freeza arc, except the Freeza arc had Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta actually doing stuff while Goku was on his way).
The ending to the arc is complete nonsense, too. Gohan does even less than everyone else for the entire story arc, and then suddenly gets a lolpowerup out of nowhere at the ass end. Had the arc ended with Vegeta killing Cell, it might've actually meant something, since this was the arc Vegeta had his change of heart.
But Gohan? Gohan sits on his ass and does nothing, and gets SSJ2 just because, and his motivations for it are just silly. Best friends and dad (and Goku) about to die? "Gonna just sit here and cry!" Random android I've never met before who wants to kill my dad gives a cheesey speech and dies? "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!"
Worse yet, it drags on pretty long in the manga, while the anime is almost unwatcheable (did we really need two whole episodes of Cell giving a monologue and charging the Kamehame-Ha?).

It's also the arc entirely devoid of humor. There's very little of Toriyama's trademark comedy to be found in the arc, likely because his editor (who kept forcing him to change plot points, which is probably why everyone was useless) kept trying to force him into a direction that's not natural for him.

It's also the arc that starts the stuff most people blame the Buu arc for. The random powerups. Super-Saiyajin being marginalized to the point where everyone has it. Non-Saiyajin characters start to become cannon fodder. I'd say waiting for Goku, but... let's be honest, that started with the Saiyajin arc; problem is they were usually doing something (fighting, dying, stealing from Freeza, etc.) while waiting for Goku in the last two arcs. When Goku arrived, it was usually for his "big damn hero" moment. This one? He arrives while they're quite literally sitting on their asses, asking "hey, is Goku here yet?" Also, everyone relevant to the plot (except Kuririn) gets a transformation (except Goku, who just masters his old one).

Don't get me wrong, the arc has good moments. There are memorable scenes (even if many of the lead ups into it aren't great). But outside of those moments, the story is pretty tedious and dull. Even the time traveller winds up just kinda being there once he kills Freeza.

It's easily the weakest arc of Z, and possibly the whole series (in canon, there's definitely worse filler arcs).
 It lacks the threat of the Saiyajin arc, the surivalistic nature of the Freeza arc, or the goofy over-the-top nature of the Buu arc, and winds up trying to be the 'dark and serious' arc without the build up of something like the Daimao arc.

In a way, the anime version of the Future Trunks arc is likely what the Cell arc was going to be before Toriyama's editor kept telling him to change it. Despite mostly focusing on Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta we got an insight to the cast's motivations, great foreshadowing to the next arc, acompelling, unique villain, a sense of despair without losing it's humor, an interesting ongoing narrative, and character development (for both sides of the conflict no less!), and perhaps most importantly... Trunks was actually relevant instead of being sidelined. And it did so in only 20 episodes!

It may be a hyperbole to call it outright boring, but when compared to so much else in Dragon Ball, it slows to an utter crawl and it never really reaches the highs the rest of the story does, and the main antagonist is just kinda a more boring version of the last main antagonist.

I guess the time when I met Dragon Ball and how much I could identify myself with Kid Gohan at the time (I was 6-8 years old) made me look at the Cell saga in a completely different way. When I discovered Dragon Ball Z on Toonami, it used to air random episodes from any saga. I already knew about the Super Saiyajin transformation without seeing Goku transform for the same time. A Super Saiyajin was a normal thing for me. I already knew basically everyone had such transformation.

Now, I had seen Gohan in the Saiyajin and Frieza (just because I want to trigger you a little) saga and I could really identify myself with him. Back then I used to be a crybaby that would end up being surprisingly strong when I got mad. I eventually stopped crying when I became a teen but that's not relevant here. The first saga I had actually seen a lot from was the Cell saga. Toonami in Latin America was airing random episodes back then with no order whatsoever, but they eventually decided to air the Cell saga properly. To me, Gohan's SSJ2 transformation was your Goku's SSJ transformation. I could feel the emotion in his scream (not to mention the Latin American dub did a great job there) and I was seeing my favorite character become the strongest and the hero that would stop the world from being destroyed.

At the time, Dragon Ball to me was just Z. I knew Dragon Ball existed, but I had seen so little of it that I just ignored its existence. Eventually, Toonami started airing the adventures of Kid Goku more and more frequently and I finally knew where Dragon Ball had started.

My love for the Cell saga might be way too biased and based a lot on nostalgia, but most of the mistakes you pointed out in that post, if not all, really don't bother me in the slightest. I got from the Cell saga what I was expecting and what I wanted. It really pleased me, and actually introduced me properly to the Dragon Ball world. Before Toonami decided to air those episodes properly, all I knew about Dragon Ball was punches, kicks, Kamehameha, Super Saiyajin, and that they were pretty fast. I only knew the names of a few characters. Maybe if I rewatch the whole thing again now that I'm 14-16 years older, I might look at it differently, but there will always be some biased and nostalgic love for it and I can't deny it.
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