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To me it depends on the game. I find most fighting games easy to get into, as long as I don't try to do those overly complicated combos and special attacks, the ones that require you to put in 10 to 20 button combinations just to do an attack, which honestly by the time you complete it you'd have taken less time just doing basic attacks and specials, especially finishers in Mortal Combat.It's for this reason that I love Dragon Ball Xenoverse, simple button commands nothing complicated just hit RT and unleash a Super or RT and LT and use an ultimate.Course I won't say I don't like other fighting games, I'm fond of the Street Fighter Series, the Mortal Kombat franchise and the Dead or Alive series (For more than just the jiggle physics.) The only time I have trouble with fighting games is after I play them for a long period of time and my hands start hurting and I end up messing up usually on the last fight of a tournament.
I just dislike that there is a gimmick to every fighting game.Like DBZ fighting games have spam abilitiesmortal kombat has juggling.etc..
"Some champion are easy to play but hard to master."
Yes, I agree. Most fighting games...actually same could be said for games in general for this generation...are easy and fun to pick up. I mean - what's so complicated about a button that initiates punches and another one for kicks? It's really just the work that needs to be implemented for the mastery of the game that most people don't like to put in.Ah yes...gimmicks. Let's talk about spamming for a second though.Yes nearly every fighting game I played has some sort of 'hadoken spam' or projectile spam that many see as dishonourable. I have always viewed this type of playstyle 'scrub' like or a tactic only 'noobs' would use. That said, I also view it as a challenge for myself. Am I good enough to beat someone using a cheap tactic through the means of my own 'clean' strategy? In my point of view, it's just another obstacle that I must surpass to further my own skills in the game. If I can't even beat a spammer, then what makes me think I can beat someone of a higher skill level?@Kiyza and I were talking about scrub filters at one point. She mentioned that grapplers are the ultimate scrub filters and I have to whole heartedly agree. Most grapplers I have faced don't actually play using combos and fancy moves. In fact, most just sit there and camp...waiting for you to approach them. Then they use some sort of grabbing move (in P4AU the main grappler Kanji has invincibility frames) to armor or invincibility frame through your moves and grab you. Usually a single grab does quite a lot of damage even though it's not a combo. Quite literally it takes a low level of skill...just sitting there and grappling (though not all grapplers are like this. I have faced some who I respect for their skill). Again, we call it a scrub filter. It's a test of your own skill to see if you can beat someone who uses a 'dirty' tactic. Just another hill we have to climb on the road of mastering a fighting game.
Ah, yes... Kanji Tatsumi. The character who makes me (as Labrys) stay on my toes because HOLY HELL THAT FREAKIN' COMMAND THROW HURTS LIKE A BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITCH!Luckily, Labrys has the best melee range, and a good chunk of her attacks ignore defense. Plus, she has a rocket punch.More characters need a rocket punch.I'll admit, I've never fought a human who played as Kanji, but if all they do is stay in one place, it wouldn't be hard to win, thanks to the penalty they'd be hit with for being dormant, and because of Labrys' ridiculously powerful back + 1 attack (which at full charge, completely ignores defense and does oodles of damage).Of course, a good Kanji player (or player in general) would simply try to bait me into attacking and leaving myself wide open, which greatly increases the challenge. 2 or 3 well placed command throws would finish me off in a nanosecond.It sounds like I really know what I'm talking about, but the truth is, I'm very low on the P4AU skillometer.
Ahh well I play Akihiko, a rushdown character with almost no range in any of his moves. So you could see how I used to have trouble with Kanji players. I've gotten a lot better now so they're a piece of cake now...the ones who just stand there that is. You play labrys yes? Respect to you. I have a friend who plays Shadow Labrys (asterius) and he tells me all the time the cons and pros to playing that type of character. Labrys has really low health so I know what you mean. You still play P4AU though @Nia? If so, perhaps we can play one day. I play that game quite regularly so I wouldn't mind having a set with you.
Being a casual gamer myself, I've always had trouble getting into the fighting genre outside of Smash. Ironically for me it wasn't the combo system as a whole that's always frustrated me, it was any move that involved a joystick. I couldn't ever get the timing right no matter how much I tried, and I couldn't figure out whether or not was moving the stick too far or not far enough, etc.I think part of it is as Kaiza said, it's a game you have to learn. And by having to learn, it means spending TONS of time on it. I play games usually for the experience, to explore a world and go on adventures, to test my skills, etc. I rarely spend more than a week on a single title before I look for something new or go back to something old. So for me, having to spend countless hours just to be maybe "decent" at a fighting game just doesn't feel worth it to me.It's part of why I love Smash so much. Not only is more fun-based overall so you can enjoy learning the game more as opposed to hours of grueling pain, but it's so simple. You click right to move right, you click down to move down, you always have easy control over what you want to do. Want to throw a fireball? Just press B and there it is. In most of the fighting games I've played, to do even some simple combos takes tons of practice and all kinds of strange button patterns that often confuse me. It doesn't make them bad, it's just not for me.Also, am I the only one who has played Sonic Fighters (and actually kinda liked it? o-o)
Yes nearly every fighting game I played has some sort of 'hadoken spam' or projectile spam that many see as dishonourable. I have always viewed this type of playstyle 'scrub' like or a tactic only 'noobs' would use. That said, I also view it as a challenge for myself. Am I good enough to beat someone using a cheap tactic through the means of my own 'clean' strategy? In my point of view, it's just another obstacle that I must surpass to further my own skills in the game. If I can't even beat a spammer, then what makes me think I can beat someone of a higher skill level?
@Kiyza and I were talking about scrub filters at one point. She mentioned that grapplers are the ultimate scrub filters and I have to whole heartedly agree. Most grapplers I have faced don't actually play using combos and fancy moves. In fact, most just sit there and camp...waiting for you to approach them. Then they use some sort of grabbing move (in P4AU the main grappler Kanji has invincibility frames) to armor or invincibility frame through your moves and grab you. Usually a single grab does quite a lot of damage even though it's not a combo. Quite literally it takes a low level of skill...just sitting there and grappling (though not all grapplers are like this. I have faced some who I respect for their skill). Again, we call it a scrub filter. It's a test of your own skill to see if you can beat someone who uses a 'dirty' tactic. Just another hill we have to climb on the road of mastering a fighting game.
@Kiyza I agree with you.Fighting games are hard and it takes time to learn combos and mostly one with faster fingers wins.
That is why I like MMO's with some strategy, skills than just button mash games.
Something a bit beyond the game itself that bears mentioning, a lot of gamers are adults now. A game like that alienates a lot of them. People like this can't play such games. There's just not enough time. They'll play it some on their days off, spend nearly week dealing with school or work or both getting rusty and then have to go through the learning stage all over again, never getting to actually play the game.
It should also be pointed out that while new players may just incessantly spam projectiles after they figure out how, since it's a relatively simple tactic, it's not one that necessarily goes away at higher levels of play either. It's just that there's a difference between "spamming" and "zoning", in that spamming is just attempting to play keep-away with no particular strategy put into it, while zoning is generally an attempt to control your opponent's position on the screen -- forcing them out of certain spots and into others by using projectiles to pressure them, among other things.Most of the games I've gotten deeper into either have ways to get around projectiles that aren't immediately apparent to new players. For instance, in Street Fighter IV, Zangief's Banishing Flat goes through projectiles and his Lariat is immune to them -- which are very useful traits because Zangief has poor mobility, and thus is more vulnerable to projectiles than most players. However, this isn't immediately apparent, and you generally have to seek out additional information on how to use certain attacks this way. Even in straightforward games like Smash Bros., a newer player might not catch on to the fact that Mewtwo's Confusion (his side special) functions as a projectile reflect because its use as a throw is much more obvious.
I think we had a slightly different understanding of what I meant by "scrub filter". When I say grapplers function as "scrub filters", I mean they tend to garner ire from players who view their playstyle as "cheap". The old definition of "scrub" (which is what I was using) is really a player who complains about the game being unfair or insists that people should play by his rules and not be "cheap". Because grapplers deal a lot more damage than the average character, they're more subject to this type of whining. Additionally, they tend to be much more difficult to deal with than most characters because they're more apt to take an understanding of the opponent to conquer, not just an understanding of your own character -- even at lower levels of play. My point was that these types of characters cause people who are just going to whine about the game being "unfair" to quit it while more clever players will persevere and realize that beginner grapplers are usually garbage and not very difficult to deal with.That said, I do think that if Kaiza has distaste for them, it's probably due to the fact that he just hasn't encountered a lot of people who've gotten past that initial curve. Grapplers in general tend to be more difficult to play because they have severe faults in some areas particularly mobility and an ability to deal with projectiles. I'd wager a lot of people simply don't come across many other players that can get past their strategy, and just continue with it because it works, creating a self-perpetuating cycle. But that's just a hypothesis. Like Nia mentioned off-hand, better grapplers tend to be good at playing mindgames, especially with baiting and punishing, which probably contributes to the issue. It takes quite a bit more mental effort to get over the skill curve.
Yes you're half-right. I have faced two handfuls of beginner grapplers. Like I previously stated, I once had trouble with them. I however gained experienced and learned, so I don't seem to have that trouble any more. That said, I still find it dishonourable when I fight them and I do not prefer to fight these kinds of players...just like how I dislike Marth F-Smash players. Can I beat them? Of course. It's relatively easy. Is it annoying beating them? Hell yes. I don't really like to play them because I don't have fun playing players using dishonourable strategies.Then again, this 'honor' I keep mentioning could just be all in my head. I remember you once said Kiyza that there's no 'fair' in fighting games. Something like that.
A bunch of points made, and very accurate to be honest, but in my opinion I think it depends on how one see's and works with the game, free time is also required of course, but if the player likes to do things simplistic and wasting no time for small and short also quick combos that's great, there's also the players who love to be completely fast paced but at the same time accomplishing the more complicated combos within their barrage of attacks, I would say i'm more of the latter, but the thing is I practice instead of simple instinct with my fingers straight from the beginning, if you're something of a gaming prodigy you'll have it down within like either a first or second try or you might even just get it instinctively during a fight without any practice.With that mentioned, practice makes perfect for some, and things just come instinctively. So like I said, I think it depends more on the player and how they work with the game but the whole free time issue is still a thing that would have and is a thing that needs to be conquered.
Hm. I understand what you're trying to get at. It's something I like to call "gamer's touch". In detail, "gamer's touch" is when you've played games (could be in general or specific category) for so long that you're immediately above the beginner level by instinct if you start playing a new game. That said, I feel as though fighting games are different. Sure you can get the basics down but I don't think fluid or optimal combos will come naturally to anyone. Plus, an important part of fighting is experience. It's like playing Super Smash Bros. and only facing level 9 CPUs. You might think you're the shit for whooping AI butt but when it comes down to it, you'll have 0 experience fighting humans who by far fight differently. That's where all the practice comes to it where you just play match after match against people online and such. Of course that takes time like you said, so I can see that being a problem.